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Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#31

Post by ergo14 »

Quanttek wrote: post #21
williamdclt wrote: post #13

My engineering school deliver engineers diploma certified by the Engineering Titles Commission, which is the only thing in France able to allow a school to make engineers out of its students. Thank you goodbye, do not make generalizations from how it is in your country.

It's the Atlantic, of course they will take about the U.S. unless eplicitly mentioned otherwise. Is the French software engineering diploma as rigorous as other engineering diplomas?

In Poland at least you have Physics and Math that you have to pass like on other engineering fields.

And you have to create thesis work that you have to defend in front of jury to get your degree.

I'd expect it would be similar in France.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#32

Post by hashkb »

hashkb wrote: post #30
danpalmer wrote: post #15

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

...or at least ignores it without a reason.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#33

Post by adityab »

For what it's worth, in Germany the title of Engineer is regulated and the correct term for those who write software (which goes in the contract) is "Software Entwickler" (Entwicklung means "development"). There's a few more complications here that I don't know very well.

I don't completely agree with this because serious engineering work on software happens in many industries. But most software jobs clearly do not fit the description nor the implied seriousness of an engineering role.

Other things that grind my gears:

1. The way the "Data Scientist" title is casually thrown around for those who are neither scientists nor know statistics. Everyone has a different idea of what the term means and (worst of all) feel that it probably applies to them.

2. "Tech" is a contraction for technology but people in the software industry (especially Americans) seem to use the term solely for Software.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#34

Post by Quanttek »

0a wrote: post #16

https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/

This doesn't really fit as the discpline of Engineering was generally licensed and regulated where, in many countries, you could only call yourself an Engineer if you adheered to certain standards and got the respective diploma/license. Gatekeeping (in the pejorative sense) is about not clearly defined groups that members want to make exclusive against certain people/groups, e.g. being a fan of something ("you are only a true fan if you can name the last five albums in chronological order")

When you compare the rigour (esp. in testing) of nomrla engineering disciplines and software engineering, you should be able to spot a difference

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#36

Post by hashkb »

ergo14 wrote: post #31
Quanttek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the Atlantic, of course they will take about the U.S. unless eplicitly mentioned otherwise. Is the French software engineering diploma as rigorous as other engineering diplomas?

In Poland at least you have Physics and Math that you have to pass like on other engineering fields. And you have to create thesis work that you have to defend in front of jury to get your degree. I'd expect it would be similar in France.

Many schools in the US also require physics and math for a CS degree. It's not the degree that's at issue, it's professional licensing and regulations.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#37

Post by lbhnact »

bshimmin wrote: post #8

While I don't much like software developers calling themselves engineers either, it was hard not to read this and think that about a week ago I was reading all about a dam that seemed poised to fail and thousands of people had to be evacuated; or about a miracle of engineering, a skyscraper in SF that appears to be sinking ( https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/san-francisco-millenni... or, oh, here's an entire Wiki…

>I don't think anyone died as a result of a lack of proper collaboration and regulation in software development.

Come work in healthcare, you may change your mind.

In healthcare, a lack of domain expertise, rigor, collaboration, and regulation kills people every day. And inhibits our science. And is the root cause of billions a week in waste.

Yes, most web content and it's delivery we could do well, or be better off, without. But in many jobs, the software constrains or enables behaviors that have real consequences.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#39

Post by ganfortran »

Whatever they want to call us, just don't care. More than OK to address myself as software developer, programmer, hacker, code writer, keyboard dancer, etc.

Joke aside, what the heck is Certified? So your software skills can asserted, by written test, that last for several hours...?

I refuse to acknowledge that online judge style algorithm questions could qualify or disqualify one person's capability to build software, it is like as civil engineers to build lego, bureaucratic BS

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#40

Post by timthelion »

After seeing some of the security flaws in Ruby on Rails, I have the impression that a book of standards for handling user data is needed. However, I do not have a degree myself, and I don't have much respect for higher CS education in the US. There have been too many certifications and education programs based on knowing APIs (which has nothing to do with good engineering), too many people learning Java and UML and comming out of college knowing nothing of use for the real world. I personally don't want there to become a profession of programming which excludes people such as myself. But if one does form, we need to make sure that it is based on actual technical principles, and not knowlege of a product be it Microsoft, Redhat or Java.
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