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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

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Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#111

Post by sologoub »

kirykl wrote: post #83
donatj wrote: post #22

The problem as I see it is that we force everyone onto the freeway. Need to get somewhere a few miles from here? They make it very difficult to get there without getting onto the freeway. There was some point in the last 30 years where city designers decided the best way to handle local traffic was just to force everyone onto the freeway. It's horrible. There should instead be a reasonable main grid of smaller (2 lan…

Waze will get you anywhere in LA without a freeway. Once you learn the side streets, there's always a faster way when the freeway is backed up.

Yup, and most people speed on "side streets", which are actually residential streets and people actually walk on these...

Can't tell you how many times I almost got run over by such a fine motorist glued to yet another app...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#112

Post by ghaff »

yequalsx wrote: post #85
wwweston wrote: post #45

> The reason that electrical power and air travel don’t fail every time they get crowded is that we raise prices to manage demand. Air travel and electrical power: (1) Are easier to add capacity for during times of peak demand (2) Actually do fail (even though tolled!) when demand exceeds capacity (brown/blackouts for electrical power, cascading delays easily exceeding those for ground traffic when weather knocks dow…

People do know that it costs to drive a car but the cost is hidden in some sense. I think few people actually calculate how much driving really costs. When I drive 10 miles I don't think to myself that it's going to cost me $5.40 (using IRS mileage rate). Gasoline taxes do not come close to paying for the road system. I remember when gas hit around $5 a gallon in the U.S. some years ago people did think about driving…

The marginal cost per mile is probably significantly lower (and will vary by vehicle) but I agree with your basic point. I expect that people would be a lot more inclined to combine errands etc. if they had to literally pay per mile.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#113

Post by droopyEyelids »

bufordsharkley wrote: post #94
adrr wrote: post #77

Problem with LA is that we build horizontally and not vertically. We keep adding more homes in suburbs and not building up in the cities that have the jobs. There's a big anti growth movement preventing high density housing. They have been successful in preventing high density projects like the Bergamot transit village(on a rail line too). Today we're voting on initiative that prevents large scale developments. If it…

But why is this the case? Largely because land use (powerful local zoning + low holding costs for land) incentivizes sprawl over infill. Consider cities that do better for transit by building upward. This is usually a case of a more sane zoning system, like in Tokyo[0], or ownership residing in the municipality, like Hong Kong.[1] [0] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html [1] http://www.hkclic.…

Contributing factor: American cities are young enough they haven't had to pay for infrastructure replacement without bail-outs in the form of income from new construction that hasn't faced a replacement cycle yet, or the federal government.

It's called "The Growth Ponzi-Scheme" https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#114

Post by digler999 »

ryandrake wrote: post #106
digler999 wrote: post #67

Some of the cost could be mitigated with "toll-free" options, such as using a vehicle tracker like EZ-pass and not charging you if you travel less than N miles (to encourage people to live near work), or giving partial refunds if you use your car very little during a month. Another option could be a centralized "smart-driving" app, that would act as a hybrid between self-driving and manual driven cars. Each driver co…

> Some of the cost could be mitigated with "toll-free" options, such as using a vehicle tracker like EZ-pass and not charging you if you travel less than N miles (to encourage people to live near work), or giving partial refunds if you use your car very little during a month. Don't know if LA is anything like SF, but here, the poorer you are, the longer your commute is, generally. So this scheme would simply penalize…

Good point, I forgot about that. I had it backwards thinking wealthy people had more latitude to choose better jobs further away from home, whereas the (non-driving) poor are more stationed in their neighborhoods. I agree 100% though.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#115

Post by ryandrake »

vesinisa wrote: post #17
myowncrapulence wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA is 35 miles long. What would the walking commute of 10 million people look like? So you're suggesting that instead of fixing the problem (public transit) they should start whipping people so that the rich can drive on their traffic-free roads?

The point of tolls is not to make roads exclusive for the wealthy. A sensible toll would be something anyone who can afford to own a car can be expected pay.

Some people don't have any room in their budget for anything! Any time you charge people $N for something that used to cost $0, the poor get hit the worst and the rich don't get affected at all.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#116

Post by kirykl »

sologoub wrote: post #111
kirykl wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waze will get you anywhere in LA without a freeway. Once you learn the side streets, there's always a faster way when the freeway is backed up.

Yup, and most people speed on "side streets", which are actually residential streets and people actually walk on these... Can't tell you how many times I almost got run over by such a fine motorist glued to yet another app...

I agree, general disregard for pedestrians is a big problem. Crosswalks are either a test of bravery or stupidity

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#117

Post by MegaButts »

spcelzrd wrote: post #90
MegaButts wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By making it cost prohibitive for the poors to move around Am I the only person who found the phrase 'the poors' offensive? I'm genuinely asking.

Is that the only thing you found offensive about that comment? Poe's law appears to be in effect here.

sigh I am surprised how much I misread that comment. I think I just saw 'the poors' and I didn't properly read the rest of the comment at first glance.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#118

Post by dublinben »

remarkEon wrote: post #105
bufordsharkley wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is this the case? Largely because land use (powerful local zoning + low holding costs for land) incentivizes sprawl over infill. Consider cities that do better for transit by building upward. This is usually a case of a more sane zoning system, like in Tokyo[0], or ownership residing in the municipality, like Hong Kong.[1] [0] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html [1] http://www.hkclic.…

Fun fact: most zones in LA County require developers to build parking on a per-bedroom basis, so they tend to build ~2.5 stalls per unit, and most of the time that ends up being subterranean. That'll add ~$100k in development costs per unit right off the bat. They can sell the stalls individually (I believe) but because of the economics of the market it just doesn't make sense to build anything but luxury. That one r…

Residential (and commercial) parking minimums need to be abolished. Set parking maximums if you must impose some rules, and then allow the market to settle on appropriate amount of parking for a new development.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#119

Post by felipellrocha »

bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

That'd be ideal... But while the data says "more public transport", ideology is pushing the other way, and nowadays I feel like people adhere more to ideology than data.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#120

Post by bsder »

virmundi wrote: post #87
nickthemagicman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA is getting better with mass transit. The problem is it's not running 24 hours. It shuts down around 1am so you it's not really good for doing things at night like in NYC. Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women fe…

Better enforcement is a good idea. Seems to be worth the money. Or carry concealed permits. You'll have to repeal California's action that requires all new semi-auto's to have a unique firing pin. But then you don't have to worry traveling. I carry. I keep odd hours in a small town. I walk every night .25 miles to my office at 8 PM and then back again around 2 AM. Never had any problem (probably the same as most peop…

> Or carry concealed permits.

Um, no. The crazy people won't care, the gangbangers will be better armed and generally in a group, and the single mugger will now take your wallet AND gun AND may shoot you if he gets the drop on you instead of just taking your wallet.

> in a small town

It shows. Your assessment of the probability of crime and how you will interact with it is completely wrong.

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