A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows • Hacker News Board

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#111

Post by SimplyUnknown » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #41

_m8fo wrote: post #4

In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion,…

> meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. Those struggling from from inequality are struggling from relative deprivation, not absolute deprivation, while the latter is the only thing that rationally matters. I don't give a damn that Bill Gates is a ridiculous amount richer than me, in fact I admire him and want to be rich too som…

Except global mean wage hardly means anything. There is a difference between income and wealth. The amount of income fails to differentiate between purchasing power at different locations. $20000 dollars in America means poverty whereas in South Sudan it means vast wealth. I bet that those complaining are in the lower bracket of purchasing power parity in their respective country.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#112

Post by oliwarner » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

I don't think this is anything particularly new. There's a pretty old saying (that is constantly mis-attributed[1]):

> If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.

Within a capitalist society, young people on the whole have less, but have to work for everything. After a decade or two working to earn stuff, you feel like other people should do that too. You can chase the reasons why down a million psychological rabbit holes.

That said, there's no reason why this would not be more true now than it ever has been before. Adjusting for inflation, we're paid the same as our parents but houses and rent is 10× what it was for them. (At least in the UK) the post-war decade-long housing boom flooded the market with cheap but good stock. Councils used to build for their own social care, and these eventually went on the market too. Now we only get mega-developers holding land until they get approval for high-density crappy houses.

That's a very distinct shift from socialised building projects to capitalist building. And it's skewed our entire economy, and really hobbles anybody on a lower income without a house to inherit.

[1]: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#113

Post by mjfl » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 7:00 PM UTC

SimplyUnknown wrote: post #111

mjfl wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. Those struggling from from inequality are struggling from relative deprivation, not absolute deprivation, while the latter is the only thing that rationally matters. I don't give a damn that Bill Gates is a ridiculous amount richer than me, in fact I admire him and want to be rich too som…

Except global mean wage hardly means anything. There is a difference between income and wealth. The amount of income fails to differentiate between purchasing power at different locations. $20000 dollars in America means poverty whereas in South Sudan it means vast wealth. I bet that those complaining are in the lower bracket of purchasing power parity in their respective country.

That's still a "standard of living" argument. You have no fundamental right to live better than those in the South Sudan.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#114

Post by mcbruiser » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

Joof wrote: post #94

0xfaded wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society has to decide what "right" people have to a certain minimum quality of life and access to services. It turns out the level can actually be quite high, one only need look to the highly successful Nordic states. The argument in america seems to be that if you work hard, you can have a decent life and a house in the suburbs. There are already problems here, what of the people born with disabilities? But assuming…

Why does any single person deserve the enormous amount of power that being so absurdly wealthy can bring?

wealth is earned, not distributed.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#115

Post by Eridrus » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #107

heurist wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the ultra rich should grow wealthier faster than middle class Americans because there are poorer countries in the world? Absurd.

In any case their wealth shouldn't be redistributed to the American middle class, rather the global poor, as should the wealth of the American middle class and poor.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

I think there needs to be a greater global redistribution effort, but we should start with a more politically tenable one based on nation states.

Also, I have a hunch (but no data) to suggest that a national one may be more economically viable since you redistribute money inside your own economy which boosts demand and increases your tax base.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#116

Post by Eridrus » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #49

dsacco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but you see this is my point entirely. Instead of engaging with the discussion you have this aloof cynicism. I didn't even say anything particularly in support of capitalism, yet you dismissed by point as "what you expected." How do you persuade others to see an alternative perspective if you don't first validate their opinions? For example, I'm willing to engage in dialectics about the advantages and disadvantag…

I see no point in an engagement where two people who are both benefiting from capitalism discuss its merits. My greater point could be that it is our benefiting from this capitalism that we have such privilege to be wasting time on such discussions to begin with. What would be gained from such a conversation, anyway? Even if one of us manages to convince us that capitalism isn't the way to go, or make us think less o…

It is specifically those who are benefiting from capitalism who need to be convinced that it is not great, since they are the ones who are propping it up.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#117

Post by Eridrus » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #31

_m8fo wrote: post #4

In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion,…

I find myself between the two ecosystems quite often and I have to admit I find it hard to know how to represent both sides fairly in discussions. It is definitely not a bipartisan issue. There is no us vs them, it is simply one big group of people where those on the bottom of the system are struggling to affect the smaller changes needed to make life more sustainable for them. They aren't big changes either, small i…

> small incremental policy changes make huge differences to individuals

I'm curious to hear what small changes you think will have a huge difference.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#118

Post by WillPostForFood » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 12:10 AM UTC

heurist wrote: post #95

WillPostForFood wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me try a different tack. Wages used to go up without relying on minimum wage. Wages have flattened, so there are a bunch of other issues that should be looked at before just forcing wages up, which can have all sorts of unintended consequences, especially if the real reasons wages are flat aren't addressed first.

So the choices are wait for the economy to suddenly unfuck itself or give our lowest earners am immediate boost?

Turns out there are more than two choices, so no.

http://wiki.c2.com/?FalseDichotomy

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#119

Post by heurist » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 12:58 AM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #107

heurist wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the ultra rich should grow wealthier faster than middle class Americans because there are poorer countries in the world? Absurd.

In any case their wealth shouldn't be redistributed to the American middle class, rather the global poor, as should the wealth of the American middle class and poor.

That's already happening through globalization. The scope of this discussion is American inequality.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#120

Post by friedman23 » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #99

friedman23 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation is useful and is not stealing if the rate of inflation is communicated and stable. If the government decided to suddenly devalue it's currency for the sole purpose of reducing it's debt burden then it could be construed as stealing. If the government communicated that it will devalue its currency at a fixed 2% every year it's not stealing because individuals are able to account for it. Why is inflation usef…

let's reframe your statements: > 1. Hold on to money because it would increase in value over time "disincentivize poor people from saving" > 2. Not make purchases because the object being purchased will require fewer units of money over time. "push poor people into consuming" > 3. Not invest in starting new businesses because the investor would be losing out on the guaranteed income from holding onto the money along…

>"disincentivize poor people from saving"

You can save by investing in the stock market or bonds which is what everyone should be doing

>"push poor people into consuming"

You can save (investing is saving)

>"Benefit rich people who seek to invest in venture capital"

The majority of people starting businesses aren't rich venture capitalists and more venture capitalists fail more often than succeed.

>"make it easier for people to sell themselves into debt slavery"

Getting into debt is definitely slavery, I'm sure the millions of people that have used debt to their benefit agree with you.

I'm done reading your comment, it's filled with unreasoned hyperbolic language that doesn't reflect the truth. Look inward and realize that at some point in your life you became radicalized to the point where you can't even think rationally