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There's no easy way to say this

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Re: There's no easy way to say this

#111

Post by megablast »

Zyst wrote: post #76
kevindong wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farther into the article: > To be fair to Squad, the Mexican minimum wage is about $100 USD monthly, so they weren't technically paying anyone lower than the minimum wage...

I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a big success.

> I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life.

But what do you mean by that? Do they get paid less or more?

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#112

Post by esrauch »

meowface wrote: post #79
asimuvPR wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some were US based developers who could have gotten more money as dish washers. I don't get this.

Moreover, they know they were directly working on a game that made at least (1.5M * 39.99) ~60 million USD. I admire dedication to one's work and love of the game and all, but that's just not rational.

Not that it justifies anything but that is probably a significant overestimate, Steam takes 30% and most people didn't pay full price for the game.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#113

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

empath75 wrote: post #7

Background: http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-s...

First a disclaimer: I have no idea what's going on with KGS or any inside info. I'm just speculating, please treat it as such.

As a generalization when a significant group from a successful game walks out en mass, it's because they feel the owners aren't fairly sharing profits. Letting this happen is usually a really dumb move by the owners.

A great example is the Medal of Honor franchise, which raised a studio best known for a nice quake expansion to the top of the industry. The owners did not treat the team in a way the team considered fair. The bulk walked out, signed a deal with another publisher to become their own studio, and the Call of Duty franchise was born. I think most people are aware that CoD has made an obscene amount of money. It's hard to believe that whatever selfish split the MoH owners were getting justified not having any split of that team's later work.

When you have a team that has proven they can hit the top, the last thing to do is treat them as disposable.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#114

Post by lazaroclapp »

eropple wrote: post #102
lazaroclapp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP (given how big of a success the game ended up being). As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not…

> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary. "This is so shitty that the nicest thing that can be said is it's not actually illegal " doesn't merit the exculpatory nature of this sentence. And the sentiment behind it isn't really worth much in the first place.

I did never meant to say that made it a good/reasonable thing (although, if we are going down that path, why is it right to pay someone $200 a month to clean toilets and not to write code? If anything, it is a shittier thing - pun intended - to offer that deal to people who don't have the means and options to refuse or get other jobs... but I suspect we would both end up agreeing that the Mexican minimum wage should be higher). My point is that there is likely no legal recourse here, which is an important detail.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#115

Post by fma »

At those wages, they can get work off elance, odesk, etc and make a heck lot more money. I guess that's the gaming industry for you. Treat people poorly because they are passionate about what they do and can't find that kind of work elsewhere.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#116

Post by sandworm101 »

lazaroclapp wrote: post #91
Zyst wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, copy pasting a comment I posted below: I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a…

I am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP (given how big of a success the game ended up being). As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not…

>> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary.

Much of that depends on specifics. Some of these devs traveled. Any work done while in other jurisdictions must have been done at local minimum wages. It doesn't take many days spent on the road promoting KSP in the US before you are legally entitled to more.

There are prosecuted cases of offshore firms sending below-minimum workers into the US. It is a crime.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#117

Post by lazaroclapp »

ido wrote: post #106
lazaroclapp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP (given how big of a success the game ended up being). As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not…

Iirc people ran with that figure...but it was actually given by just one of the employees, who was a 16 year old they got to do "community support". We dont know how much the coders were making.

Interestingly, Mexican law does put a series of restrictions on employing 16 year olds, so that part might be actually illegal (specially if it's full time work, or anything above 6 hours per day).

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#118

Post by CydeWeys »

whack wrote: post #108
Zyst wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, copy pasting a comment I posted below: I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a…

I'm probably missing some back story here. Why did the developers agree to work for such low salaries? If they accepted the job knowing how much they will be paid, why are they upset about it now?

Because things change over time? There's a big difference between accepting a job at a low salary, and then staying on after awhile at that low salary with no raises, when you realize just how hard the working conditions are, and that you aren't saving any money while your friends are making steps in their financial lives and careers. This is basic at-will employment; you're free to decide you on longer want to do it at any point. I don't understand why you think that just because they initially accepted it, they should be OK with it indefinitely.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#119

Post by imron »

jcrites wrote: post #92
jewbacca wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news! A moderator edited the title to drop the "Kerbal Space Program:" Now it's _just_ "There's no easy way to say this" Request granted, eh?

Dang and other HN staff have said before that they like making readers have to work a bit for the information, and not just be spoonfed in the headlines. I understand it to be about fostering curiosity and wonder. I assume it's also about discouraging people from dismissing an article based on headline alone. ("Kerbal Space Program? I don't know what that is and don't care about it"). Really great HN articles are oft…

The problem in this case is the link went to reddit.com.

I first thought this was some announcement reddit was making. I don't mind working for the information, but I don't like misleading information.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#120

Post by lazaroclapp »

sandworm101 wrote: post #116
lazaroclapp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP (given how big of a success the game ended up being). As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not…

>> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary. Much of that depends on specifics. Some of these devs traveled. Any work done while in other jurisdictions must have been done at local minimum wages. It doesn't take many days spent on the road promoting KSP in the US before you are legally entitled to more. There are prosecuted cases of offshore firms sending below-minimum workers into the US. It is a crime.

That's interesting to know. Guess my mental model was "this is work that can be done anywhere on earth, for a Mexican company under Mexican laws, so where the employee is should not matter legally", but if the location of the employee had anything to do with the work they were asked to perform... e.g. go to this event and promote our game, then it should indeed be illegal.
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