Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#111

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

iaskwhy wrote: post #31

Having been to Copenhagen a few times in my life (partner used to live there) I came to realise there might be two extremes in terms of the way you look at tax rates. Some people might move to Dubai because its income tax is low or even nil - that attracts people who are more interested in their own well being than their communities'. Now some people - I would include myself here (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't reall…

Even people who desire lower taxes and less services love their communities, they just operate from a strong sense or right and wrong. Right being that you work if you can and even if you cannot you do not impose on others unless necessary.

The generations who came up in the early 1900s, twenties, thirties, and even forties, have a vastly different outlook than those that followed. You were entitled to do right, you were not entitled to take.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#112

Post by _Codemonkeyism » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 2:57 PM UTC

hedgew wrote: post #35

I'm not in Denmark but in a very similar European country. I don't want the high taxes. The current taxes and mandatory payments feel unfair. The generations before us worked during the greatest economic boom in history, were mostly employed in safe and high paying government jobs (still are), bought houses before their values tripled, and are now receiving monthly pension payments that are almost twice what most you…

The borked pension system sounds like Germany, where it was changed in 1957 by Adenauer to win the election because of older voters.

To win one election, borked the future of millions.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#113

Post by unknown_apostle » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 2:57 PM UTC

iaskwhy wrote: post #31

Having been to Copenhagen a few times in my life (partner used to live there) I came to realise there might be two extremes in terms of the way you look at tax rates. Some people might move to Dubai because its income tax is low or even nil - that attracts people who are more interested in their own well being than their communities'. Now some people - I would include myself here (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't reall…

All people who are net receivers from the system do so literally for their own well being.

Which is logical. And ok, because obviously there are lots of truly helpless cases in any given country.

But over the decades, it accumulates fraud. Or even worse, a kind of learned helplessness which keeps people in their place. Maybe Denmark is different. But my guess is that many living in Belgium and France will be able to point out multiple cases of fraud or at least debatable cases in their immediate surroundings.

Finally, a lot of the available money never leaves the hands of the vast bureaucratic caste that manages the system.

I guess what I want to say: people will be people, regardless of the system. Social democracy involves a lot of cynicism and greed too. And probably in a less constructive way than systems that don't rely exclusively on "anonymous" Big State-enforced redistribution.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#114

Post by alkonaut » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #95

alkonaut wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Denmark is like Sweden (It has a very similar political system, as do all the Nordic countries) then donations usually aren't solicited by politicians but by parties. Individual politicians rarely campaign at all. Obviously parties can be indebted to donors just like individual politicians - but the result at least superficially seems to be lot less shady dealings since buying something off a major party will take…

>Obviously parties can be indebted to donors just like individual politicians Obviously. AND given that the proposal is obviously a hand out to the wealthy and it came at a political cost to the prime minister (in decreased popularity)... I mean, you can put two and two together yourself right?

Strange on unpopular policies from large parties in our multi-party governing collisions are usually concessions to the smaller parties in exchange for parliamentary support. Not sure what's going on here though.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#115

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:09 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #105

rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans do not pay anywhere near 50% in taxes. A high income American that makes money as ordinary income (rather than capital gains) and does not own a house and lives in a high tax city will pay almost 50% if you factor in federal, state, healthcare, and sales tax. Everyone else pays a lot less. Typical including health insurance premium is probably around 30-35%. In a state like Georgia with a generous employer…

> A high income American that makes money as ordinary income (rather than capital gains) and does not own a house and lives in a high tax city will pay almost 50% if you factor in federal, state, healthcare, and sales tax. You have just described a typical Hacker News reader, who lives in, say, San Francisco, has relatively high income, and pays rent.

Ie a tiny minority of the US population.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#116

Post by bouvin » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:13 PM UTC

manarth wrote: post #21

crdoconnor wrote: post #12

>The government's plan involves cutting the top rate of income tax by 5 percentage points >The main idea behind the change, which is now being discussed by parliament, is to make salaried work more attractive and woo some 40,000 people off welfare in the process. Not a bad plan for a country that faces labor shortages and growing pressure on its costly social safety net from an aging population. This is a sales pitch…

and raising personal allowances so as to boost the salaries of the lowest earners by an average of 7 percent So the plan is to cut the taxes of high-earners, as well as improving the tax-free allowance for everyone… Without increasing other taxes, or reducing spending? Where's the extra money coming from?

Magical thinking.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#117

Post by calgoo » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #110

pjc50 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intergenerational inequality is an increasingly serious problem, and as you suggest might kill the welfare state if it's no longer percieved to be fair. The flashpoints are more likely to be in the south of Europe, such as Greece.

The critical failure of the welfare state, as it is currently implemented, was that it relied on ever-increasing payrolls in the younger generations to fund the pensions and subsidies of the retirees. Once that breaks down, as it is starting to, so does the system built upon it.

Yea, here in Spain most people under 35 dont expect to have any public pensions when we come of age. The system is so underfunded and corrupt that I expect to work until 75 at least and really dont expect there to be any public funding left by then. As I tell others here, get a private plan, even if you cant put a lot in it, setup an automatic transfer each month and done.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#118

Post by gaoshan » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

VeejayRampay wrote: post #37

atemerev wrote: post #10

In other countries, taxes are complicated (no citation needed). There's income tax, but there are also social security payments, industry-specific taxes, etc. And you have to pay for your own education and healthcare! Danish tax is simple and all inclusive. It is around 50%, which is about the same as in US if all hidden obligatory payments are taken into account. But it is all inclusive: all education and healthcare…

Let's be serious here. I'm French, all for high taxes and all but please let's not delude ourselves thinking that American people pay "around 50%" taxes. As soon as you have enough money to afford it, you'll pay a tax lawyer to get that down to about 15% or something, thanks to a bajillion hidden tax system loopholes allowing the rich to get an advantage on the less fortunate. And even if you take into account the pr…

>As soon as you have enough money to afford it

Well it must be an obscenely large amount of money. My wife (a college professor) and I (IT Manager) are nowhere near being able to take advantage of these amazing loopholes. We pay federal tax, state tax and 2 local taxes (one for the village we live in and one for the village where my wife's college is located). Don't forget sales tax on literally every item we purchase. Property tax is a killer as well. Then there are the payments that are deducted from our paychecks to go into Social Security (which we have no guarantee will even exist by the time we retire). We also pay an enormous amount for medical care, fees for our kids public primary school costs, huge amounts for our son's college, etc.

So, we pay a large number of taxes (I didn't even touch on all of them), risk catastrophic financial collapse if we get very ill or badly injured, have to spend obscene amounts of money on education and do NOT have access to whatever loopholes you imagine we have (well, probably someone like Donald Trump does but not normal people, or even slightly better off people).

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#119

Post by rayiner » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #105

rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans do not pay anywhere near 50% in taxes. A high income American that makes money as ordinary income (rather than capital gains) and does not own a house and lives in a high tax city will pay almost 50% if you factor in federal, state, healthcare, and sales tax. Everyone else pays a lot less. Typical including health insurance premium is probably around 30-35%. In a state like Georgia with a generous employer…

> A high income American that makes money as ordinary income (rather than capital gains) and does not own a house and lives in a high tax city will pay almost 50% if you factor in federal, state, healthcare, and sales tax. You have just described a typical Hacker News reader, who lives in, say, San Francisco, has relatively high income, and pays rent.

But if you're a married couple in Georgia with a mortgage and a kid, making $90k total, tax withholding takes out 23% from your paycheck, with the 4% sales tax rate taking out maybe another 1-2% because most of your expenses (e.g. mortgage, services, and food) aren't subject to sales tax.

The U.S. is unusual among western countries in how little it taxes the middle class.

Re: Most Danish voters oppose government plans to cut the top rate of income tax

#120

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

spoonie wrote: post #96

pjc50 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

British system: tax and social security deducted by employer. Council sends you an annual bill vaguely related to the value of your home, paid over 10 months. Healthcare free at the point of use, apart from the £7 prescription charge in England. I was in my mid-30s before I had to file a tax return, and that's only because I'd set up a limited company. The Inland Revenue (HMRC) can be nasty, but nowhere near as nasty…

Small correction, the council (municipal government) charges the occupant of the house, not the owner. As a renter in London I was paying council tax. Edit: The biggest downside to the UK system is there isn't an obvious end of year review, so many people don't look at their taxes. I wonder how many people are overcharged?

Correct, that's a detail I'd left out for simplicity.

End of year: That's your P60 + end of year payslip, isn't it? PAYE overcharging is certainly possible when you change jobs if you lose the P45 or end up on an emergency tax code for some reason, but if you take the 30 seconds to check your payslip every month you're more likely to notice.

What's more messy is the tax credit system. I hear that the way to maximise tax chaos for yourself is to have two self-employed divorced parents alternating custody of a child every month and claiming WFTC.