Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#111

Post by justinlardinois » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 7:49 PM UTC

peyton wrote: post #89

SapphireSun wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's okay to foist an injustice upon someone because they were ignorant or lazy? We should be making our social systems fail-safe when the consequences are so severe. It shouldn't be possible to eject someone like that without round after round of appeals and second chances to get good paperwork, and if they were eligible for citizenship, and in good faith relied on the idea that they were citizens, then by all right…

I think that's how it works today. In my personal experience, USCIS goes above and beyond to get citizenship for citizens. It's possible the above comment leaves out some crucial detail.

Or things just fall through the cracks. It's not surprising to me that tragedies like the one in the original comment happen sometimes.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#112

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

froogle wrote: post #109

Houshalter wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It remains this way because Americans do not generally consider or believe Econ 101 ideas It's not at all clear this violates "Econ 101". Supply and demand set prices, and wages are basically the price for labor. Increasing the supply of labor should necessarily decrease wages, and vice versa. Imagine the extreme, worst case scenario. If the US opened it's borders completely, and imported every poor worker in the en…

> It's not at all clear this violates "Econ 101". Supply and demand set prices, and wages are basically the price for labor. Increasing the supply of labor should necessarily decrease wages, and vice versa. Increasing the supply of labor also increases the demand for other goods. Workers have to eat! If you kick someone out of the country, you reduce demand for food, clothes, etc., eliminating the local jobs that wou…

But does the benefit make up for the cost? It would be really unlikely if 100% of a workers wages went into the local economy, let alone local workers. Many products they buy may be from overseas, for instance.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#113

Post by epicureanideal » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 12:26 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #81

bruceb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending people back who came illegally while people all around the world are waiting to come legally has zero in common with Nazis.

Actually it has everything in common with the Nazis. The Nazis were the law-and-order party of their day. Very nearly everything they did was legal. That is why they documented everything so meticulously. They really believed they were the good guys. The main reason the Nazis are the iconic villains is not because what they did was that much worse than other atrocities that humans have committed through the ages, but…

Just because some villains started out being for law and order doesn't mean being for law and order makes you a villain. Being for law and order is the "we're the good people" disguise that villains hide in until they show themselves to be villains. But NOT being for law and order doesn't make you a "real good person". The correlation is probably strongly negative even.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#114

Post by epicureanideal » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 12:27 AM UTC

panic wrote: post #64

bruceb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending people back who came illegally while people all around the world are waiting to come legally has zero in common with Nazis.

The use of force to round up large groups of people is a terrifying thing, and it's absolutely something the Nazis did.

So for example, the Mexican Army being used to round up hundreds of drug cartel members makes them equivalent to the SS then? Rounding up large groups of people is not a sufficient condition for being equivalent to Hitler.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#115

Post by michaelbuddy » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 2:49 AM UTC

tarikjn wrote: post #37

parineum wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh but shouldn't she have applied for a green card as soon as she turned 18? I don't know the ins and outs of immigration but that's because I'm a citizen. If I wasn't, I'd sure as hell know what I needed to do in order to stay in the only country I'd ever known as home.

It's not harsh, but your reply just proved the point of either how little Americans know about their immigration system or how it much nonsensical it is. According drinchev, I can assume that when his/her friend turned 18 she would have had to go through the process to apply for green card just as if she never lived in the US. I know someone who was in a similar situation, grew up in America, his parents were diploma…

Brought over an immigrant myself. The fact is you MUST ensure you've done everything correctly. You don't trust, you verify. Diplomats should have known better. People who adopt from overseas need to know. You can't just do whatever you want in terms of bringing new bodies from foreign lands. That's the administrative reality and there's no reason to have exceptions when these people should have been responsible. If you don't have consequences, then people don't follow administrative rules. If you don't have administrative rules and laws, good luck having order, good luck managing. Good luck collecting taxes, good luck having a country.

Why are we so quick to blame the USA, or blame our own country when these things actually aren't all that difficult. There are forms for everything. And where there are challenges, there are lawyers. Can't afford a lawyer or figure it out yourself? Guess what you just proved you're not prepared to bring over an immigrant regardless of their age.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#116

Post by michaelbuddy » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 2:58 AM UTC

SapphireSun wrote: post #56

parineum wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh but shouldn't she have applied for a green card as soon as she turned 18? I don't know the ins and outs of immigration but that's because I'm a citizen. If I wasn't, I'd sure as hell know what I needed to do in order to stay in the only country I'd ever known as home.

It's okay to foist an injustice upon someone because they were ignorant or lazy? We should be making our social systems fail-safe when the consequences are so severe. It shouldn't be possible to eject someone like that without round after round of appeals and second chances to get good paperwork, and if they were eligible for citizenship, and in good faith relied on the idea that they were citizens, then by all right…

You're actually calling justice / rules 'injustice.' You clearly have never done any of this type of paperwork. It's not actually that hard for one. And there are consequences for things you don't do, whether you're a nice guy, whether you didn't realize something was prohibited.

Sucks for some yes because they don't take care of business. But it also sucks when we don't have protective measures in place. And it's both unfair and extremely difficult to have exceptions for everything subjectively.

Are we also expected to pass with an A+ everyone who had good faith that they knew course material? Are we supposed to loosen up all regulation as well because we 'trust' a company will handle things fine because somebody's cousin owns the company?

You know when somebody leaves the scene of an accident, they sometimes do it because they don't realize they are supposed to stay, sometimes they don't even realize they knocked a cyclist down nearly killing them. Guess what, they still get charged with leaving the scene of an accident even if they were completely oblivious.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#117

Post by michaelbuddy » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 3:02 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #105

shambala wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely support what Switzerland did. If you don't want to be part of the culture you are joining, they don't have to let you in. Note that they are not expelling the girls-they are denying them citizenship. Citizenship for Switzerland means shared values. Ping me when Saudi Arabia allows Jews to become citizens.

If you think Saudi Arabia is a good example of how nations should be run, then something is very wrong with your priorities.

Maybe read their comment again. It went over your head I think.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#118

Post by michaelbuddy » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 3:17 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #70

epicureanideal wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Trump and the brown shirts? Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? I read an article recently that says he's more of an American version of Italy's Berlusconi, and that seems more reasonable to me.

> Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? Trump's policies are eerily reminiscent of Hitler's. Seriously, go look up some transcripts of Hitler's speeches, especially the early ones, and substitute "Muslim" for "Jew" and compare the results to Trump's rhetoric. Better yet, show the results to some Trump supporters and ask them if they agree with the sentiments. But I don't really care what color their shirts are.…

ehhh No. Every election cycle sees both sides compared to hitler. Hitler hyperbole is immature. And if you look at enough speeches or statements from anyone you can compare to a dictator. Not that hard. You're also blatantly excluding the things he's said about legal immigrants and muslims that are overwhelmingly positive. You've made that choice to ignore positive statements.

> "Trumps policy is...."

No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That includes having more reinforced border fences or walls. Already law. The end of sanctuary cities, which are basically localized laws breaking federal law.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#119

Post by michaelbuddy » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 3:25 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #98

erlehmann_ wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Nazis can serve as iconic villains mainly because a lot of their value system seems so alien compared to what we have in the western world today. Besides, many people like to believe they are the “good guys”.

Everyone thinks they're the good guys. Even the ISIS folks think they are the good guys, that they are fighting the good fight against the infidel for the greater glory of God. That's the whole point. That's the reason that, "It's OK because we're the good guys" is not a valid argument, because everyone applies it to themselves. "Sending people back who came illegally [is OK]" is a thinly disguised argument of that s…

just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' And to say having immigration laws with consequences means the U.S. is like the Nazi's? I mean at this point there's really no point to consider you as thinking rationally.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#120

Post by lisper » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 6:23 AM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #119

lisper wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone thinks they're the good guys. Even the ISIS folks think they are the good guys, that they are fighting the good fight against the infidel for the greater glory of God. That's the whole point. That's the reason that, "It's OK because we're the good guys" is not a valid argument, because everyone applies it to themselves. "Sending people back who came illegally [is OK]" is a thinly disguised argument of that s…

just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' And to say having immigration laws with consequences means the U.S. is like the Nazi's? I mean at this point there's really no point to consider you as thinking rationally.

> just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic'

That is certainly true, but Trump has said much more than just calling for law-and-order (which, by the way, is a very loaded term in American politics: the phrase was first used by Richard Nixon as a deliberate code phrase intended to signify solidarity with southern white racists in the 60's). He has also, for example, called out Mexicans for being "rapists" and called for a "total ban on Muslims entering the U.S." Comments like those are xenophobic. The combination of xenophobia and law-and-order is very reminiscent of early Nazi rhetoric. That doesn't necessarily make Trump a Nazi, but it does make it not entirely unreasonable to raise the question.