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Reddit is still in turmoil

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Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#111
post #20

I think much of Reddit's problems with its userbase boil down to an early failure to manage expectations. It's pretty clear that the Reddit corporation doesn't want Reddit to be an anything-goes, absolute free speech zone with no moderation or anti-harassment policies -- but that's what the site actually was for many years. Now, when the company cracks down, users think their freedoms are being curtailed. The mistake…

I think what happens when we have truly anonymous free speech, on places such as Reddit, Twitter, and 4Chan, shows that we are nowhere as civilized as we like to think we are.

I think this is a mistaken impression.

The problem, I think, is that we haven't figured out new norms and boundaries for online socialization, as we have for other forms of communication and other media. One of the things that makes online communication so potent is that it is not just easy but also near instantaneous with a global reach. But we have been slacking on building the tools to manage the problems inherent in that power. One of which is the concentration and distillation of harassment. A tiny group of people can generate a tremendous amount of harassment which, through the magic of modern communication technologies, automatically gets funneled to the receiver. Even, say, a million people worldwide is still a tiny fraction of all people in the world, let alone all people online (less than 0.1%), but if there were a million dedicated harassers online it would be a hellscape.

In reality it only takes a few assholes to spoil the "mood" and the "fun" of interacting online in public, from a few dozen up to tens to hundreds of thousands. A minute but vocal, abusive, and provocative sub-group can easily change the entire tone of a conversation or change someone's experience using social media from good to bad. How many people sending you death threats and rape threats regularly would it take to sour your experience with social media? The real answer is: a very tiny number.

Right now that very tiny number of agents provocateurs are having an outsized impact on online communities and communication platforms, because they are leveraging the power of vitriol, hate, and targeted harassment. And also precisely because the platform builders (whether it's facebook, twitter, or reddit) have been far behind in building tooling to help deal with these problems, and because the social norms haven't caught up with the behavior. Going back to the '90s and even the '80s it was common for, say, usenet newsreaders to have tools built in for ignoring posts from people you wanted to ignore, and the modern tools for such things are barely at that level, if they exist at all, despite the problem being even more difficult to tackle. Additionally, there were a lot more moderated communities back then, whereas today the norm is unmoderated communities.

Just like the security problems of the early internet days we've largely been surviving based on luck and absence of dedicated attacks, and partly just due to ignorance of the worst that was actually happening. There are a lot of people who still don't think that harassment on the internet is a serious problem because they don't actually understand it all, having never experienced it in its most potent forms.

The worst takeaway from this would be deciding that most people are garbage and socializing with other human beings is best avoided (online or off). That's a classic "stranger danger" overreaction. We need better tools on various platforms. We need more people speaking out about the badness of harassment online and for people to stop parroting the stupid line "oh, it's just online, you can ignore it, it's not real" or defending targeted personal harassment as any sort of defensible "free speech".

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#113
Here is a good time to repost a paragraph about why one should not trust Reddit, by Reddit's then CEO, Yishan Wong:

> I am continually astounded that people sort of trust corporations like they trust people. We can talk all day about how the current team is trustworthy and we're not in the business of screwing you, but I also have to say that you can never predict what happens. reddit could be subject to some kind of hostile takeover, or we go bankrupt (Please buy reddit gold) and our assets are sold to some creditor. The owners of corporations can change - look what happened to MySQL, who sold to Sun Microsystems, who they trusted to support its open source ethos - and then Sun failed and now it's all owned by Oracle. Or LiveJournal, which was very user-loyal but then sold itself to SixApart (still kinda loyal) which failed and then was bought by some Russian company. I am working hard to make sure that reddit is successful on its own and can protect its values and do right by its users but please, you should protect yourselves by being prudent. The terms of our User Agreement are written to be broad enough to give us flexibility because we don't know what mediums reddit may evolve on to, and they are sufficiently standard in the legal world in that way so that we can leverage legal precedents to protect our rights, but much of what happens in practice depends on the intentions of the parties involved.

> The User Agreement is intended to protect us by outlining what rights we claim. But it cannot protect you - you must protect yourself, by acting wisely.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. Actions toward others have a much larger societal impact than privately held beliefs. For example, if someone has racist beliefs which do not affect his actions in any way, his effect on other people in society would be exactly the same as it would be if he did not have racist beliefs. In other words, beliefs that are not acted on or expressed have no effect on society. There may be some social benefit to…

I can't imagine a situation where someone has beliefs that do not affect his actions in any way. I would agree that unexpressed values would propagate less.

Imagine that he never came into contact or communication with a person that he was racist against. E.g. a racist hermit.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#115
post #20

I think much of Reddit's problems with its userbase boil down to an early failure to manage expectations. It's pretty clear that the Reddit corporation doesn't want Reddit to be an anything-goes, absolute free speech zone with no moderation or anti-harassment policies -- but that's what the site actually was for many years. Now, when the company cracks down, users think their freedoms are being curtailed. The mistake…

I think what happens when we have truly anonymous free speech, on places such as Reddit, Twitter, and 4Chan, shows that we are nowhere as civilized as we like to think we are.

I have two (opposing) thoughts on that

1. We don't always want to express all our opinions and thoughts among people we know, because they carries significant social cost. So we end up saying a disproportionate amount of those things anonymously online.

2. It used to be that nobody had to listen to the outcasts and the lonely. People we don't enjoy being around. But now they can participate in online forums as much as anyone.

In part, it's a good thing that these voices can be heard, and that they can find likeminded to talk to. But a lot of them are outcasts because they're jerks, and online we do have to listen to them.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#116

I think much of Reddit's problems with its userbase boil down to an early failure to manage expectations. It's pretty clear that the Reddit corporation doesn't want Reddit to be an anything-goes, absolute free speech zone with no moderation or anti-harassment policies -- but that's what the site actually was for many years. Now, when the company cracks down, users think their freedoms are being curtailed. The mistake…

> If there is a lesson in this, it is that online communities which plan to implement anti-harassment policies ought to do so from the beginning, and develop the expectation among the users that such policies exist, and will continue to exist. A few relatively popular programming languages have begun publishing official community code of conduct documents[1][2]. While initially I thought it was a bit overreaching, I…

Pretty much every community over a few hundred people in size will eventually be faced with a moment where the "powers that be" are forced to sit down and have the "what are we going to do about person X" talk. Every one of them. That's just the nature of human beings. If you find yourself in that position and the person is merely toxic to interact with, count yourself lucky, because it can often be a million times worse. If you are in a position of power with a community it's very important to look at codes of conduct, standards of behavior, and mechanisms for reporting/tracking/resolution early. Because building those systems early will make that "what are we gonna do" moment a zillion times easier to handle. It'll also usually mean that things get handled earlier than they would otherwise, possibly before they've escalated out of control and possibly avoiding a lot of damage that might have happened otherwise (to individuals and to the community).

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a thesis that is basically identical to yours about unmanaged expectations and community being the main root of the problem that reddit/twitter/etc are facing, which is part of the reason why we started Imzy https://www.imzy.com/imzy We got some press early on that really told an untrue narrative of what we are trying to do, but we've made a ton of progress in a few months of our private beta and our communiti…

Self-promotion aside, you should disclose that you are ex-Reddit.

To be fair, kickme444 was pretty well-known as a reddit employee! (But explicit disclosure is good too.)

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#118
post #91
post #63

Wow. What a hit piece. I bet their anonymous source happens to be the ex VP of Product that was fired by Pao, and is now building a 'safer' Reddit. Conflict much? In their sources quote, it's evident the source knows a lot of the inner workings of the leadership, is a man, and doesn't work there anymore. Well, that leaves only the ex VP, seeing as though Pao was a woman. So they took all of Dan's words as truth? The…

Going from "I bet" (i.e., you imagine) something about somebody to making factual-sounding claims ("Dan's words") using that person's name is a big breach of civility and you can't do it here. You went even further than that and hounded this guy elsewhere in the thread. That's unacceptable on HN, so we've banned this account.

It's a shame u238ed chose to make unsubstantiated allegations against Dan, but he/she does have some valid points. A lot of the article itself is unsubstantiated, and doesn't really give much detail about the actual problems at reddit. It seems to be talking mostly about problems with trolls on subreddits, but that doesn't really have anything to do with toxic workplace. The only somewhat concrete allegation is the sexual harassment at the work parties, but I'm not quite sure how that translates into people of colour leaving.

It sounds like u238ed worked or works at reddit, so presumably he/she has some insight into the culture there.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#119
post #39

Why the hell is Reddit trying to make their own content when the entire point of the site is for the users to create the content? Don't make a Reddit podcast, make Reddit a podcast hosting network. Don't make a Reddit video show, make Reddit a video hosting site. Don't make a Reddit magazine, make Reddit a source for anybody to publish their own magazines. Why does Reddit have writers and editors and creative directo…

I see why they want to create their own curated content. A friend of mine has created and run several user-generated content sites and he said: "user generated content is worthless; largely racism and porn." It's driven by the lowest common denominator. As long as content is hosted on company-controlled servers where ad revenue is the model for survival, you're going to see slow declines and eventual busts like Digg.…

As an average user, why would I care whether that forum is online or distributed to my machine?

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#120
post #39

Why the hell is Reddit trying to make their own content when the entire point of the site is for the users to create the content? Don't make a Reddit podcast, make Reddit a podcast hosting network. Don't make a Reddit video show, make Reddit a video hosting site. Don't make a Reddit magazine, make Reddit a source for anybody to publish their own magazines. Why does Reddit have writers and editors and creative directo…

I see why they want to create their own curated content. A friend of mine has created and run several user-generated content sites and he said: "user generated content is worthless; largely racism and porn." It's driven by the lowest common denominator. As long as content is hosted on company-controlled servers where ad revenue is the model for survival, you're going to see slow declines and eventual busts like Digg.…

>As long as content is hosted on company-controlled servers where ad revenue is the model for survival, you're going to see slow declines and eventual busts like Digg.

That's really not what happened at Digg. The problem at Digg was a structure which rewarded "power users" and allowed third party commercial interests to gain control of the site. It's bad enough that Digg had advertising - eventually we were looking at Digg ads to get to content that was itself advertising.

And not all user generated content is worthless. Youtube is a good example of this - I can point to user after user who has uploaded quality original content of one kind or another for years.

Yes, 90% of it is crap, but if you subscribe to the channels you like and check out the channels your subscriptions recommend, you can avoid nearly all of it. And, you know, Sturgeon's Law.

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