Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 254 posts

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#111

Post by DavidHm »

alkonaut wrote: post #84
broodbucket wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland can't leave the UK and remain in the EU. They would have to become independent and then begin the application process, which could take years. There's a real possibility that some EU members will oppose their application. EDIT: "UK Government could use Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty to apply for a treaty change which would allow Scotland to become a member when it formally becomes independent in 2016. The A…

> Scotland can't leave the UK and remain in the EU. They would have to become independent and then begin the application process, which could take years. There is precedence for the opposite. That said, Scotland on its own would have to demonstrate that it can be a member, but it's far from clear that they would have to reapply. Repplying would almost certainly fail because Madrid would block it.

Madrid would have certainly blocked Scotland if it separated from a UK that was still in the EU (for obvious Catalunian reasons).

With the UK on its way out from the EU, an argument can be made that Madrid will be persuaded to let this happen.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#112

Post by Unosolo »

throwaway049 wrote: post #75
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

Commonwealth and Irish citizens resident in UK could vote, whereas resident EU citizens could not.

A democracy is about people whose lives will be significantly affected by a decision having a right to take part in the decision-making.

Why this logic was applied to resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens differently from residents from EU?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#113

Post by gmac »

cocotino wrote: post #79
Nursie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of this is the media indulging its own bias, and how significant the 'bregret'* stuff really is. I really hope we don't find out how a second referendum goes, as I think it would paint the EU and westminster in a worse light, and put UKIP firmly into ascendancy. *I really hate all these portmanteaus...

The media is working really hard with the bregret thing, the same they worked really hard making sure everybody would vote remain. It's sickening how they want to suppress the will of the majority.

Right, I forgot, that was exactly what the Sun and the Mail were up to. :P

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#114

Post by _Understated_ »

ck425 wrote: post #95
pi-err wrote: post #47

To quote a Tory MP: "Nicola Sturgeon seems to be the only one who knows what's she's doing". Warning of a constitutional crisis is good tactics. It probably will not lead to canceling brexit, though it will probably break the 1998 devolution law and change how Scotland can "sell" independence and its claim to stay in the EU. So it looks like this is either to lay ground for a "fast track" EU access due to special cir…

Definitely the former. That and possibly an attempt at a second indyref if the current momentum doesn't die. I live in Edinburgh, one of the areas with the highest No vote in the indyref, and pretty much everyone I talk to who voted No would strongly consider a Yes vote. Depending how the situation in westminster develops, this might calm down or it could get stronger.

At the last indeyref the budget figures were plucked out the air and with the oil price collapse the hole in the finances is massive.

How is Scotland going to finance it this time?

FYI I am Scottish, living in Scotland and I voted out!

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#115

Post by rndmio »

_Understated_ wrote: post #87
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#116

Post by ck425 »

sievebrain wrote: post #102
ck425 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely the former. That and possibly an attempt at a second indyref if the current momentum doesn't die. I live in Edinburgh, one of the areas with the highest No vote in the indyref, and pretty much everyone I talk to who voted No would strongly consider a Yes vote. Depending how the situation in westminster develops, this might calm down or it could get stronger.

They're mad now. But a second referendum would force the situation to be analysed a lot more carefully. And that situation would not be a strong argument for leaving, no matter how much the Scots might like the idea of the EU.

You presume the referendum will be based on sound analysis. If there's one thing the EUref has shown it's that you don't need sound analysis. It also depends heavily on how the UK does in the coming year. The UK needs to be economically and politically powerful enough that it's not worth giving up for self determination. It doesn't need to be a better deal, it has to be better enough to defeat romantic notions of independence.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#117

Post by jaredklewis »

antouank wrote: post #45
Nursie wrote: post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

All fine points, but generally in democracy, the time to educate the voting public and raise issues like disenfranchisement is before the vote, not after.

Obviously, the losing side of any politcal battle will always want a redo. And obviously the winners will always prefer to keep the results as they are. Letting the losers try again until they win is like a DOS attack.

Btw, I totally agree though that leaving something like succession up to a simple majority is crazy. Seems 2/3 is more appropriate for big things like this, going to war, and what not.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#118

Post by ck425 »

_Understated_ wrote: post #114
ck425 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely the former. That and possibly an attempt at a second indyref if the current momentum doesn't die. I live in Edinburgh, one of the areas with the highest No vote in the indyref, and pretty much everyone I talk to who voted No would strongly consider a Yes vote. Depending how the situation in westminster develops, this might calm down or it could get stronger.

At the last indeyref the budget figures were plucked out the air and with the oil price collapse the hole in the finances is massive. How is Scotland going to finance it this time? FYI I am Scottish, living in Scotland and I voted out!

Out of curiosity, why?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#119

Post by gmac »

Nursie wrote: post #61
shin_lao wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several political leaders admitted that they lied during the election, therefore people voted based on lies. Since the majority isn't that big (less than 52%) is would be acceptable to not immediately follow through. It's as big as a constitutional change and such change usually require more than 50% to be adopted.

Like David Cameron and his promise to invoke article 50 last Friday? Or George Osborne and his punishment budget? There were dreadful lies on both sides. Personally I treated the entire campaign period as a sideshow we'd have been better off without, the issues and opinions about EU membership are far deeper rooted than the last few weeks of noisy bickering. Further, the constitutional changes that got us in were not…

There were dreadful lies on both sides.

I disagree. Leave's lies were on a completely different (larger) scale. Most fundamentally, Leave claimed that Brexit would not be an economic disaster, which they cannot possibly have known — especially since they very clearly have no plan at all for what's next.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#120

Post by ck425 »

sievebrain wrote: post #97
ck425 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might not have to leave the uk and rejoin. There's precedence for regions of countries not being in the EU while other are. Additionally the UK is a union between Scotland and England so we'd technically not be leaving, but choosing to break the union, at which point the UK ceases to exist and becomes Scotland and England (and it's associated region/principalities etc). Since the UK is the member of the EU (not it…

The EU Commission has already said flat out there would have to be a new application. That application would certainly be vetoed by either the Spanish (catalan issues) or the Germans (Scotland has a bigger deficit than Greece).

Perhaps, but it would be a different situation from a completely new country joining. The Spanish have back pedalled on their previous threats to do so. Not sure about Germany. I'm not say it would definitely happen, only that it would be an unprecedented situation so we can't rely on assumptions either way.
Post reply on HN