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GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

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Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#111

Post by wstrange »

exstudent2 wrote: post #92
X86BSD wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better argument is that it's simply not a voluntary contract between two parties. It's theft by one party that has a monopoly on violence to enforce the theft on the other party. Until one day when the other party stops playing by those rules and shoots back. "But you can vote to change it." If voting changed anything it would be illegal. Only an idiot believes "voting" means anything in a two party system…

Really sad to see all the libertarian viewpoints blanket down voted, mostly without any replies. It really seems like tech has been hit with a wave of pro-big government thinking. My personal theory is that it's younger people who didn't have to deal with the threat of a draft and the baby boomers heavy handed social meddling. The threat of being forced into a war you don't agree with will make you think twice about…

I honestly don't get all the libertarian angst about paying taxes.

As a Canadian, I pay a lot of tax. I grumble a bit during tax season - but I am incredibly grateful that I was lucky enough to be born in a prosperous country. A good part of my sucess (education, health care, etc) was paid for by other peoples taxes. So I am quite happy to return the favour.

I also want to live in a society that is compassionate and takes care of those who can not take care of themselves. The libertarian viewpoint seems like "I got mine, so I'm OK".

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#112

Post by cmurf »

brasky wrote: post #99
typon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are taxes immoral?

Forced taxation is immoral since it violates the non aggression principle. You can still have voluntary taxation though.

And how does free loading on others avoid the non-aggression principle? Do you have examples of where voluntary taxation exists and works?

Do you think turning societies into country clubs is really workable, as in, does it scale? Tax payers are in effect members of civil society, but we have a technology that enables us to identify non-members so that we can each choose whether, and how, to exclude non-members from social and business ventures?

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#113

Post by miles »

sbierwagen wrote: post #102
exstudent2 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that you think you're buying civilization with your taxes when the vasty majority of the money you give the government is used to actively destroy civilization. Bombs aren't cheap.

Vast majority? Military spending is only 15.75% of the US federal budget. And that's just federal spending, citizens also pay taxes to states and municipalities, which rarely field combat aircraft.

While military spending (not counting veterans' benefits) in 2015 was around 16% of the total US federal budget[1,2], it made up 53.71% of the discretionary spending budget, dwarfing the next closest category, "government", at 6.54%.

From the BusinessInsider link below:

"The military budget is by far the largest single cost displayed. It is almost six times larger than the 2015 education budget and it is more than 34 times the size of NASA's 2015 operating budget. In total, the costs of running the military amount to approximately 16% of the overall 2015 US budget."

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-defense-budget-is-mass...

[2] https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud...

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#114

Post by typon »

brasky wrote: post #99
typon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are taxes immoral?

Forced taxation is immoral since it violates the non aggression principle. You can still have voluntary taxation though.

Letting a child starve doesn't violate the non-aggression principle either.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#116

Post by golergka »

kybernetyk wrote: post #13

>Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can learn their citizen's total income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes Wow, what a feature ...

Well, apparenty HN readers want universal basic income and punish tax evaders, so payment anonymity is bad, right?

I mean, either these two kinds of stories (UBI and privacy) have completely different sets of people who write and upvote comments, or majority of them just don't realize how at odds these ideas are.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#117

Post by JdeBP »

tremon wrote: post #100
drdeca wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company creating value and the same company committing theft are not contradictory. One can take commendable actions AND reprimandable (?) actions. As far as whether there is an obligation to pay taxes, well, "render unto caesar what is due to caesar" and all that.

reprimandable (?) Deplorable.

reprehensible

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#118

Post by davorb »

cmurf wrote: post #87
jdimov9 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This must be the most blatantly hypocritical statement I have ever read. Money is STOLEN by corporations by not paying taxes??? How ignorant and thankless can you be? Money is CREATED by these corporations and you owe a huge chunk of your well-being, and quite likely your life, to the existence of said corporations.

Money is created through loans. It's not created by corporations (other than commercial banks who are in the business of loaning).

Money is just an unit of account, and in this context rather uninteresting. I could give you a billion Reichsmark, and you would be no better off than you would have been if I gave you a roll of toilet paper.

Corporations and individuals create wealth, which benefits us all.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#119

Post by matt_kantor »

X86BSD wrote: post #88
maloney wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Your argument is, if the thing taking your money provides you with some benefit it's moral?

I think a better argument is that it's simply not a voluntary contract between two parties. It's theft by one party that has a monopoly on violence to enforce the theft on the other party. Until one day when the other party stops playing by those rules and shoots back. "But you can vote to change it." If voting changed anything it would be illegal. Only an idiot believes "voting" means anything in a two party system…

This is one reason I am strongly in favor of open borders.

Based on your comment I'm going to assume you live in the United States, and the only reason your argument has teeth is because you feel stuck under the current system (and rightfully so). If it were easy to opt-out by moving elsewhere then the relationship between government and citizen starts to look a lot more like a voluntary contract.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#120

Post by sievebrain »

kybernetyk wrote: post #13

>Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can learn their citizen's total income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes Wow, what a feature ...

Taler is being designed at Inria, in France. France is not a country with high levels of distrust of government or taxes.
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