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CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

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111–120 of 189 posts

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#111
post #79

Is it Oracle's position that all implementations of the Java APIs (or partial implementations) are illegal, unless it's specifically allowed by Oracle? That sounds ludicrous. What about unit testing libraries, for example?

Well, even though I don't like Oracle's standpoint here, I still feel that often the design of an API is much more work than the implementation of it. Implementing something is often just doing "the logical thing", whereas designing an API requires a lot of trial and error, and planning. An API describes in a way the greater design of the system (how things connect together), whereas an implementation is just filling…

I wonder if Oracle devs had any influence when they created the API.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#112
post #108

What's most striking to me is how easily this could have been avoided, everybody knew what liabilities would arise from betting your entire mobile platform on the goodwill of a competitor. With the massively overqualified talent pool Google hoards, they could absolutely have implemented a completely new language, compiler, and VM themselves. I'm sure this alternative must have been at least on the table. Does anyone…

If anything, Google's desire to reinvent the world has held them back here. They could have just forked OpenJDK and made their lives easier, in retrospect. Into this went their irrational fear of GPL (describing it as 'viral' or 'infectious').

The fact remains that not even Google can reinvent the world in their image. Building a whole new language at the same time as a legacy-prone ecosystem requires too many moving pieces to fit together quickly. They picked some middle ground, java allowed them to tap into the large java talent pool (then and now). Reinventing the guts allowed their ambitious engineers to show off, which they did, but maybe not as effectively as if they'd built on top of the work of others.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#113
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, even though I don't like Oracle's standpoint here, I still feel that often the design of an API is much more work than the implementation of it. Implementing something is often just doing "the logical thing", whereas designing an API requires a lot of trial and error, and planning. An API describes in a way the greater design of the system (how things connect together), whereas an implementation is just filling…

I agree that API documents (say, interface code and it's documentation) are works that fall under copyright. This case is more about fair use. Is Google's usage of the Java APIs fair use, or a copyright infringement?

This is a very common misunderstanding of fair use. Fair use is copyright infringement. It's just a legal defence when you are being sued. This is one of the big problems with fair use in the US. If you intend to use a fair use defence, you will almost certainly go to court. You will not get a summary judgement of "Oh that's obviously fair use, so we don't have to have a trial". This means you will have to pay a lot of money for a lawyer.

Having said that, IANAL and I could easily be wrong. This is not legal advice.

The real question (which seems already to have been answered) is are APIs a copywritable work, and if so is an implementation that follows the API a derived work? So is it an infringement if I simply implement the API? The original court decision said it is not an infringement, the appeal said it is and the supreme court decided not to hear a further appeal. That's why we are left with a fair use defence.

This is quite spectacularly bad for the industry IMHO, but there is not much we can do about it now other than to have US citizens lobby congress to pass a new copyright law (which seems pretty unlikely). If it turns out to be fair use, that will make it slightly less bad. However, expect rent-seekers to start coming out of the woodwork to sue for implementations of specifications anyway. They know that they can simply sue you for less money than it will cost to defend yourself with a fair use defence. Expect this to be the new patent troll.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#115
post #93

Can someone elucidate how these trials have access to internal email exchanges?

It's called Discovery. When a company gets sued, the first thing the opposing counsel does is request they provide all communications relevant to the case. Judges tend to frown on non-compliance with such requests (e.g. shredding papers, deleting emails, and other such similar shenanigans) and tend to send people to jail or declare judgements against the offending party. This is one of the reasons why you should be c…

tend to frown on non-compliance As in Arthur Anderson no longer exists because someone shredded documents that were under discovery.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#116
post #108

What's most striking to me is how easily this could have been avoided, everybody knew what liabilities would arise from betting your entire mobile platform on the goodwill of a competitor. With the massively overqualified talent pool Google hoards, they could absolutely have implemented a completely new language, compiler, and VM themselves. I'm sure this alternative must have been at least on the table. Does anyone…

Android's success was that its foundations was something the community knew. Java was either #1 or #2 of most popular language and their was a vast mind share that could be utilized.

A new language for a new mobile platform would have been disastrous. Could you imagine someone saying her is our phone everyone learn it and make great apps for launch in 6 months?

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#118

Oracle will likely win on technical grounds regarding APIs but only because the law is unsuited to software. It's whether a judge should overrule it on principle of not patent trolling as it's against the public good. It's the fact they bought Sun with the intention of suing Google in order to profit from Android's success. If it was Sun suing it would different. After Elon Musk pledged that other car manufacturers c…

The other question is what an Oracle win would do to the Java ecosytem

That is a good question. I think short-mid term not much, as a huge amount of infrastructure is dependent on the jmv as a platform, switching to .NET or independent solutions is only a long-term option. I don't know how big a long-term impact will be, but I think it won't be neglible...

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#119
post #112
post #108

What's most striking to me is how easily this could have been avoided, everybody knew what liabilities would arise from betting your entire mobile platform on the goodwill of a competitor. With the massively overqualified talent pool Google hoards, they could absolutely have implemented a completely new language, compiler, and VM themselves. I'm sure this alternative must have been at least on the table. Does anyone…

If anything, Google's desire to reinvent the world has held them back here. They could have just forked OpenJDK and made their lives easier, in retrospect. Into this went their irrational fear of GPL (describing it as 'viral' or 'infectious'). The fact remains that not even Google can reinvent the world in their image. Building a whole new language at the same time as a legacy-prone ecosystem requires too many moving…

OpenJDK was released around the same time Android was announced as imminent, and only a little before Android was released. Google could not have forked OpenJDK for Android at launch without doing a bunch of rework and delaying the launch, because the work they did getting Android ready mostly predates OpenJDK.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#120
post #55
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean that all code written in pure functional languages is not code, since it does not "do" anything?

It describes calculations or operations, so functional code still seems to perform or describe some actions. Constraint logic programs seem more of the grey area I think you're talking about. Is a set of constraints "code" (c.f. https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Prolog/Solving_a_Logic_Puzzle#... )?

What if I perform calculations with C++ type declarations? C++ templates are Turing-complete after all.
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