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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#111

Post by PhasmaFelis »

falsestprophet wrote: post #80
SEJeff wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I was pointing out his logical fallacy in assuming I supported someone because of where I was from. That is a ridiculous assumption, so I made an equally ridiculous one, which he immediately understood. Then we got on really well.

It isn't equally ridiculous. 38.6% of Americans state that they would vote for Donald Trump over Hilary Clinton while 49% state that they would vote for Clinton over Trump. There are only several hundred members of the IRA today (out of 1.8 million people in Northern Ireland) and even fewer of them participate in terrorism. And it's not a logical fallacy. The cab driver clearly didn't mean all Americans support Donal…

> The cab driver clearly didn't mean all Americans support Donald Trump. Presumably he knows there are other candidates so thats at least a few people who don't support Trump. He meant a lot of Americans do support Trump and clearly they do.

Why are you willing to accept that the cab driver was speaking figuratively, but not that SEJeff was?

Re: Classism in America

#112

Post by cableshaft »

100k wrote: post #83
jff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget "flyover states", to be uttered in the same tone of disgust as "southerner"!

I got a bit of that when I moved to SF. It's harder to pin Midwesterners down by accent, though (city folks, anyway).

Hey everyone, I found one! He said folk, without saying "indie" before and "music" after! Dead giveaway!

Re: Classism in America

#113

Post by todd8 »

hyperliner wrote: post #3

This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or…

But I'd rather be at the mall than mow my yard. I pay someone to do that. I'd rather be at the mall than work on my own plumbing. I pay someone else to do that.

The key point is that at some level I'd rather be at the mall that work as a software developer, but I'm really good at that so that's what I do instead of goofing off at the mall all day. We should do what we are most productive at, in this way we contribute the most to society (see Comparative Advantage in any economics text).

The military does a tough job. That most of us don't want to do it isn't being hypocritical. It's just the truth that I'm a better software developer than solider.

Now, when I was of an age that I was eligible to be in the military, one often had no choice about it. You were simply told by the government that you had to take years out of your life and perhaps lose you life killing people that most of us saw little point of fighting. Fortunately, my number wasn't picked. Not all of my friends were so fortunate. In that time, we all bore some collective guilt for sending young men off to die against their will to for our politics.

Re: Classism in America

#114

Post by stcredzero »

Thus social class and economic class are not identical, they are intersectional. They relate and they mediate one another, but they are not the same thing.

And both of these are not identical to race in the US, but their perception is indeed still partially mediated by race.

Re: Classism in America

#115

Post by kilbuz »

biztos wrote: post #103
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #44

Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions of them. It also influences spending habits.[1] In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of c…

Well, in San Francisco it's actually never bikini season, but otherwise this makes sense.

Never, except literally right now. It's really hot out as I type this.

Re: Classism in America

#116

Post by stcredzero »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #55
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

When I moved to New York City after living in Florida and North Carolina, I was really surprised at the blatant bigotry here. I've had people respected in this industry for their open mindedness look at me without irony and ask me if it's really as bad as everyone "down there" calling everyone else ... (looks around nervously) ... the N-word. Todd Barry has a great bit on this (language might be offensive to some) ht…

When I moved to New York City after living in Florida and North Carolina, I was really surprised at the blatant bigotry here.

There is a lot of bigotry in the Bay Area and online. Considering what we know about the mental shortcuts people use to process complex social information, evidence/science minded people should expect there to be bigotry as an unfortunate phenomenon to be aware of. Instead, it has received the imprimatur of "sin."

It's a thorny problem. Talk about bigotry in the "wrong" way, and you ironically open yourself up to yet more bigotry involving projections about your internal mental state.

Re: Classism in America

#117

Post by apalmer »

nxzero wrote: post #45
ska wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same. This statement doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One of the main purposes of training for many jobs (lawyers, physicists, police, etc.) is explicitly to modify the mental model you apply to the world.

Point is there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. While I'd agree that mental induction into a field does happen, that unlike in many fields, law enforcement has a very primal nature, and many that take on this domain are predoposed to it; within nature, the domain would be the relationship between predators and their prey.

dont really think its that certain types of individuals being drawn to law enforcement, or rather i think that is true but i dont think thats the largest factor. I do not think its so much the type individual as the type of situation.

Meaning I think when you put people into primal life or death situations which require split second decision making a lot of instinctual processes take over.

Re: Classism in America

#118

Post by alistairSH »

henrikschroder wrote: post #100
arcanus wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a spo…

Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator.

As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class.

It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation.

Very few people truly aspire to be upper-class (think Kennedy or Vanderbilt). Rich, maybe, but probably not upper class.

Re: Classism in America

#119

Post by nerfhammer »

tamana wrote: post #71
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #44

Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions of them. It also influences spending habits.[1] In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of c…

For shoes new yorkers walk a lot than others and need better shoes.

you also need different shoes for different weather conditions.

Re: Classism in America

#120

Post by HalcyonicStorm »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #108
biztos wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in San Francisco it's actually never bikini season, but otherwise this makes sense.

San Francisco doesn't have bikini season, it has bikini hours: 10:30AM to 4PM. The other time is reserved for hoodies.

I like the way you think
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