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I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

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Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#111

Post by chroma »

eropple wrote: post #95
d23 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we're just misunderstanding what each other means by privilege. > why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money Absolutely, I don't think they can. They don't have the free time, and they're worn out after a long day of work. That's not t…

The term "privilege" is being used here in the social sense of the word, not the generic sense of the word. Which, to me as somebody who's spent a decent bit of time wrestling with the fact that, yes, I am incredibly privileged, is actually a little irritating--it's jargon but many people try to wedge it in as a normal word, much like (but less egregiously than) how Stallmanites try to co-opt "free". > If a person wa…

If I were a demon from Hell, tasked by Satan himself to ruin discourse about opportunity and egalitarianism, I could scarcely do better than calling people "privileged".

Think about it from the accused's point of view. Yes they were lucky in many ways, but they also worked hard to get to where they are. Then someone belittles their efforts, claiming it's simply because they are privileged. Privileged? Even an average person has to overcome a ridiculous amount of adversity to be successful. Calling someone privileged immediately makes the conversation antagonistic.

Instead, I think it's much more effective to use "lucky" or "fortunate". People won't shy away from those adjectives. If anything, they'll readily accept them. This starts the conversation on a much friendlier note and makes people more likely to work with you.

Edit: Looking up Danilo, I see he perfectly fits my example of ruining discourse by being overly antagonistic. When Y Combinator posted about their efforts to improve diversity in startups[1], he chastised them and misconstrued Sam Altman's words.[2] When Altman asked him for advice and help, Danilo just got angry and accused Altman of trying to get him to work for free.[3] This sort of behavior is extremely counterproductive. It polarizes the conversation and alienates large swaths of potential helpers.

1. http://blog.ycombinator.com/diversity-and-startups

2. https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/492764323874222081

3. https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/492840606054363136

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#112

Post by daxfohl »

chrisra wrote: post #88
bluedino wrote: post #35

At the core of operations, Amazon is no different than Walmart.

I'm not sure about warehouse conditions, but from my experience in the home office, this sounds completely untrue. I'm not going back, but there were a ton of friendly people there. They treated interns really well, I think. My coworkers were a really good bunch.

FYI you left no way of determining whether you meant Walmart or Amazon or ....

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#113

Post by eropple »

chroma wrote: post #111
eropple wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "privilege" is being used here in the social sense of the word, not the generic sense of the word. Which, to me as somebody who's spent a decent bit of time wrestling with the fact that, yes, I am incredibly privileged, is actually a little irritating--it's jargon but many people try to wedge it in as a normal word, much like (but less egregiously than) how Stallmanites try to co-opt "free". > If a person wa…

If I were a demon from Hell, tasked by Satan himself to ruin discourse about opportunity and egalitarianism, I could scarcely do better than calling people "privileged". Think about it from the accused's point of view. Yes they were lucky in many ways, but they also worked hard to get to where they are. Then someone belittles their efforts, claiming it's simply because they are privileged. Privileged? Even an average…

That's why I generally start with "lucky" or "fortunate", indeed! But the concept of privilege is a sociological one, and does eventually need to be addressed. Because this isn't about you, or me, it's about the systems that put people in the places where they are and work to keep them there.

"I am incredibly privileged" is not a statement that offends me, because I actually know what it means.

As per your edit: I don't necessarily agree with the level of vitriol, because I have had good interactions with Altman, but I'm not in Danilo's head and I am not part of the groups who YC was (not so much anymore, to their credit) and HN is (routinely even today, despite the very good efforts of people like dang) marginalizing and attacking. HN is a business asset for YC, and if you want somebody's help to improve your business asset, you pay them. Especially when you screwed up in the first place.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#114

Post by throw2048-AZ43 »

js8 wrote: post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

But by all means, please use it as often as you can. We need this ungrounded in reality construct to get even more vague before it will become apparent how bogus it is

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#115

Post by s73v3r »

djtriptych wrote: post #46
rdtsc wrote: post #24

My nephew worked for Amazon in Kentucky and during a snowstorm they refused to let him stay home. He didn't feel it was safe to drive (and it wasn't). They told him he is fired. Someone even called to apologize later, but he already found work some other place. On the "good" part of Amazon at AWS, I had a laughably terrible hiring experience (I know I've told my story multiple times, sorry). They forgot to call me ba…

I want to soften this viewpoint a bit. I had similarly bungled experiences with both Facebook and Google (eventually got offers from both, accepted at Google). Missed phone calls, mistaken identity, inter-office communication problems and more. It's not a fair reflection of the company at large; recruiting is very often a shit show for all kinds of reasons.

I think it very much is a reflection of the company, in that it shows they don't take it seriously.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#116

Post by s73v3r »

ikeboy wrote: post #39
CaptSpify wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I like them as a amazon.com customer. I guess to make things awesome on the outside, those on the inside have to suffer... I've never understood this logic. Amazon is making a ton of money (rightly so, imo), they could afford to trim down quite a bit. Why should those on the inside be forced to suffer?

Their profit margins are tiny. Look up earnings for recent quarters.

Isn't that because they tend to reinvest most of their revenue back into the company, instead of paying it out?

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#117

Post by throw2048-AZ43 »

OldSchoolJohnny wrote: post #81
marknutter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

"It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability." Oh, you must be very young! :)

Nice ad hominem. Let me try it too: Oh, you must be very dumb.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#118

Post by s73v3r »

marknutter wrote: post #20
js8 wrote: post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

For a lot of those people, just having free time, let alone free time that you can use to learn a skill is a privilege.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#119

Post by throw2048-AZ43 »

jdavis703 wrote: post #82
kalleboo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a pretty proficient programmer, but I would never have gotten there if I had to study after working 12.5 hour shifts all week - I'd still be working in the warehouse today. That's why I recognize I had privilege growing up in a country with paid-for higher education and parents who encouraged me to attend. I also support such social measures for others as I feel it would be economically inefficient if I was still…

A lot of people don't seem to realize that the term "privilege" is simply the opposite of under-privelavged and think the term means they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Cool motte-and-bailey agrument, but no. Just to give 1 example: if, as you claim, "privilege" would universally mean simply the opposite of under-privileged, the "check your privilege" phrase would never exist.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#120

Post by CydeWeys »

d23 wrote: post #77
rdtsc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere? I think that's what the OP called the "privilege". Those that have it, don't see why others can't do the same. It comes from having a completely different world view and priorities. That's why it is common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would b…

Yes, I had the privilege of having a basic computer with dialup as a kid. My family moved so I had no friends and was bullied constantly. For this reason, I became obsessed with the computer, learned to program, and ultimately it got me a job. I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. I spent most of my childhood living in a trailer. Plenty of people I know had access to the same thing (most of t…

How old are you? You might be under-estimating how lucky you were to even have access to a personal computer at home at all. See the chart on page 2 here: https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p20-569.pdf

For example, when I first started using computers as a kid, it was at a time when less than one in eight households had computers. That's pretty privileged.

> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. I spent most of my childhood living in a trailer.

It's not a spectrum along a single axis. You can be privileged in some areas and not in others.

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