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Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

nautil.us

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Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#111

Post by tcj_phx »

chillingeffect wrote: post #29
tcj_phx wrote: post #19

Having observed my girlfriend's "mental illness" [1], I can say, with confidence, that Psychiatry is the problem with America's approach to mental health. As Dr. McHugh observes [2], conventional Psychiatrists "diagnose" their patients' symptoms, and treat the diagnosis without much concern about the actual causes thereof. One of my girlfriend's problems is that she has low energy levels - certainly caused by previou…

Yes, it's shame, but medicine has a mainstream, industrial aspect as well as it has a high-quality, focused aspect. I hope it gets well for the two of you. Remember good old exercise, nutrition, sunlight and everything else. Success creates new realities! And most especially, thank you for pointing out that amazing documentary on Erickson! I've read the NLP foundation's first two books on him and they're incredible.…

The documentary is really cool - I heard about the premiere on NPR one morning, and went that afternoon.

> BTW, have you tried any NLP of the therapy variety with your gf? How surprised would you be to find it working as well as you can imagine? ;)

She's come a long way since I met her. I recently found a copy of /UnHypnosis/ at a local thrift store, which she's going through: http://stevetaubman.com/unhypnosis/ - seems like it's basically applied NLP. I have most of the old NLP books, and some of the newer ones too.

My Voice Will Go With You - https://books.google.com/books?id=AEo9acmCFNUC

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#112

Post by olalonde »

tcj_phx wrote: post #19

Having observed my girlfriend's "mental illness" [1], I can say, with confidence, that Psychiatry is the problem with America's approach to mental health. As Dr. McHugh observes [2], conventional Psychiatrists "diagnose" their patients' symptoms, and treat the diagnosis without much concern about the actual causes thereof. One of my girlfriend's problems is that she has low energy levels - certainly caused by previou…

Has your girlfriend tried a ketogenic diet? A lot of people, myself included, report higher energy levels and loss of sugar cravings after just one or two weeks (could be placebo of course, there doesn't seem to be a scientific consensus).

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#113

Post by rl3 »

_ywdj wrote: post #109
rl3 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that. My point was that when the source of the depression is primarily biochemical/physiological in nature, that no matter how good the person's life is, or how well they apply emotional techniques, it can still cripple them.

no matter how good the person's life is I think the mistake here is to assume that a privileged life is a good life. All the comments here that say things like "they had plenty of money, good looks, great career etc but were crippled by depression" make that mistake.

I wasn't equating good with privileged. I'm well aware people can be completely miserable for any number of legitimate reasons regardless.

If there's biological factors working against a person harder than any emotional/environmental/life changes can correct for, then those techniques are ultimately rendered inadequate.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#114

Post by emmelaich »

slapshot wrote: post #71
astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

I am close to somebody who has been strongly affected by depression. She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life. But she suffers off-and-on depression. Not just "I feel bad" depression. Crippling, "can't get out of bed" depression. Periodic suicidal ideation. Occasional suicide attempts. She kn…

I agree mostly, but how do you know for sure that there is some stress or thought there which is perhaps unacknowledged?

I think that someone can be affected by somethings in their earlier life that can affect them forever. I'm not talk about repressed memories, I'm talking about the lack of positively formative experiences at critical moments of their life.

Example - what happens when say someone starts school or is a teenager at the same time their mother is undergoing menopause and their father has lost their job and they're both starting to drink? The child will feel a lack of something but not sure what. If they do think of it all, they'll think of it as partly their fault.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#115

Post by _ywdj »

rl3 wrote: post #113
_ywdj wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no matter how good the person's life is I think the mistake here is to assume that a privileged life is a good life. All the comments here that say things like "they had plenty of money, good looks, great career etc but were crippled by depression" make that mistake.

I wasn't equating good with privileged . I'm well aware people can be completely miserable for any number of legitimate reasons regardless. If there's biological factors working against a person harder than any emotional/environmental/life changes can correct for, then those techniques are ultimately rendered inadequate.

OK, but my point is that that's an invalid way to think about it.

The biological factors are symbiotic with the environmental factors. One does not function in isolation from the other. If your biology is preventing you from enjoying your supposedly "good" life, you don't really have a good life at all. Depression is one way in which the mind signals that.

The way to have a life that is actually good is to bring your environment and your biology into balance.

Such techniques exist and are highly effective for people who are fortunate enough to be able to discover and adopt them (of whom I'm one).

That they're not widely accepted in the mainstream doesn't diminish from their existence or their effectiveness.

As I've said earlier, I understand your point of view as it's one I held for a long time.

Since I learned the way of thinking about it that I've been arguing here, I've been able to take meaningful action that has allowed me to overcome depression and build a life that is actually good rather than just appearing good (both to outsiders and to my delusional self).

Anyway, I won't be responding further; you've made your point well, I've made mine and I hope my comments have helped you to clarify your own thinking, as yours have mine. Thank you for the discussion, it's an important issue that I appreciate people making the effort to engage in.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#116

Post by ScottBurson »

_ywdj wrote: post #94
rl3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My own view is that depression is an evolved response to negative stresses and situations, and that clinical depression is the far end of this scale. How do you reconcile this with cases of clinical depression where the person's life is otherwise fantastic, and yet they suffer from crippling depression anyways—absent any negative stresses or situations?

I would question the definition of a "fantastic" life. Appearance and reality are very different things.

I am reminded of the tragic case of Mengyao "May" Zhou, a Stanford grad student who killed herself in January 2007. She outwardly seemed successful and happy, but it appears to me and others who have commented on the case that in fact she was driven to suicide by the pressure her father put on her to have just such a "perfect" life.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#117

Post by rl3 »

_ywdj wrote: post #115
rl3 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't equating good with privileged . I'm well aware people can be completely miserable for any number of legitimate reasons regardless. If there's biological factors working against a person harder than any emotional/environmental/life changes can correct for, then those techniques are ultimately rendered inadequate.

OK, but my point is that that's an invalid way to think about it. The biological factors are symbiotic with the environmental factors. One does not function in isolation from the other. If your biology is preventing you from enjoying your supposedly "good" life, you don't really have a good life at all. Depression is one way in which the mind signals that. The way to have a life that is actually good is to bring your…

>The biological factors are symbiotic with the environmental factors. One does not function in isolation from the other. If your biology is preventing you from enjoying your supposedly "good" life, you don't really have a good life at all.

Agreed. To note I had originally phrased it as an "otherwise fantastic life" but it kind of turned into a semantics argument.

>The way to have a life that is actually good is to bring your environment and your biology into balance.

My position wasn't that environmental or emotional techniques are ineffective, just that sometimes they're inadequate in face of overwhelming biological factors, necessitating biological intervention as well. But hey—I think we're finally in agreement.

>Since I learned the way of thinking about it that I've been arguing here, I've been able to take meaningful action ...

That's great. Please don't take what I said as an indictment or assault against what works for you, I certainly didn't mean it that way.

>Anyway, I won't be responding further; you've made your point well, I've made mine and I hope my comments have helped you to clarify your own thinking, as yours have mine. Thank you for the discussion, it's an important issue that I appreciate people making the effort to engage in.

Likewise. Have a good one. :)

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#118

Post by Abraln »

spangry wrote: post #105
slapshot wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am close to somebody who has been strongly affected by depression. She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life. But she suffers off-and-on depression. Not just "I feel bad" depression. Crippling, "can't get out of bed" depression. Periodic suicidal ideation. Occasional suicide attempts. She kn…

I'm very much in this category of depression. I have what is unfortunately termed 'melancholic depression'. I should note that I'm very sceptical of the DSM 'disease model' of mental illness, and am glad to see psychiatry and neuroscience beginning to converge. 'Discrete disease' is a poor abstraction for most mental illnesses. A better term for my kind of depression would be 'endogenous depression' (i.e. depression…

It does get pretty tiring explaining the difference between them. Mine is definitely biologically based, although stress exacerbates it like it does many other things like acne. My "eureka" moment came in high school (when brain chemistry changes from puberty can cause such issues). I was at home playing video games online with friends when I noticed my vision was blurry. I went to the bathroom and saw tears streaming down my face, which baffled me as my conscious thoughts were in no way sad/negative at the time. There was just an underlying feeling of heartache. Over the next 4-5 years I worked with a professional and finally managed to find a drug combo that balances me out. I still get sad, but only for logical reasons, and only as much as I used to before my symptoms developed. It has been a full year for me now without any "episodes", something I had not thought possible previously. I just figured I would share this in case someone else might benefit from reading it.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#119

Post by rednerrus »

openasocket wrote: post #50

I'm skeptical of the long term benefits of Ketamine. It seems odd to give an anesthetic, a depressant, to someone with depression. They claim it reduces the risk of suicide and works quickly, but is that due to a curative neurological effect or is it just because you've given them a sedative? Not to mention the side effects: memory loss, delusions, psychosis, even schizophrenia-like symptoms. Sure, these tend to happ…

Perhaps depression is your bodies attempt to tell you that you are experiencing too much stress and need to slow down. Taking an anesthetic may be just the relaxing experience that you need.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#120

Post by cypherpunks01 »

nether wrote: post #92
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used it for a couple months at the oral dose that the early phase NIH clinical trial found to be effective. I did feel like i got a positive benefit from it with no side effects, though didn't do any extensive blind testing myself so it's purely anecdotal. I found it to lift some constant anxieties a bit, and help guide my overall outlook on life more positively. That said, I did find ketamine to be an extremely ef…

Might I ask how you self-administer your ketamine? And where do you acquire it? You can email me at nodus3 at google mail.

Unfortunately I have to administer it, um, insufflated. Which I am really not a fan of but it's the only route that I've found workable. Wasn't able to administer sufficient quantity for intranasal spray, and oral is out as it tastes absolutely horrid. Sources, nothing that you couldn't find off reddit.
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