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I found my father living on the street

bbc.co.uk

111–120 of 145 posts

Re: I found my father living on the street

#111
post #46

What kind of society lets a mentally ill man roam the streets, deteriorating, instead of institutionalising him and helping him recover?

Many other good answers, but here's an anecdote: In Oslo, near the university, there used by a "cave dweller". A by all accounts bright student who at 25 decided to stop washing himself. He was soon thrown out of his student accommodation because of the smell. He then decided to take up residence under a tarp in a makeshift "cave" in a hillside next to the university where he stayed for the following two and half dec…

>(EDIT: This does not mean that he necessarily didn't have mental problems, but that he was coherent enough to be able to justify his decisions sufficiently that the court found he was competent to make his own decisions about whether or not he needed treatment)

Where is the difference between this guy and the one who risks their lives and their childrens' lives by being a missionary in some place where their work can be punished by death? If anything, this man is more sane as he isn't risk his life and the lives of those close to him.

P.S. I'm a religious guy myself, but I am seriously asking this. In many ways religion itself can seem to be a mental illness if it weren't so popular.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#112

Man, so many comments, so many musings about individual freedom and whatnot, and I have yet to see one that mentions the actual, and IMHU perfectly logical, criteria that mental care institutions use to decide whether to intern someone against their will: "Is this person a serious danger for himself/herself or other people?" Note that it's not the institution the one to make the decision, but a judge. And, also, taki…

In the US though there is a sad twist to this story. I know a family with a mentally ill adult daughter. They have health insurance, but insurance doesn't want to cover "unnecessary treatments." Sometimes when the daughter has had a psychotic episode or another acute difficulty, insurance has not been willing to cover inpatient treatment/overnight stays. On at least one occasion, the family has waited with fear and danger to figure out how she can get treatment, only to get the blessed call from the police: Your daughter hasn't hurt anyone else (yet), but she totaled her car/got caught stealing/got found by police in the street; since we've arrested her and do believe she's a threat to herself or others we can admit her on a 72 hour hold. And now insurance will cover it.

When compulsory doctor visits are not working, care is not available to those who need it in the US because of cost and insurance. It's not government taking away our freedom here, and it's a pity more Americans don't see this.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#113
Her dad apparently made a great recovery; the sad thing is that the event that made it possible is a heart attack, i.e. an organic condition. Shows how little society cares about mental illness IMHO (although free will issues have been pointed out)

Re: I found my father living on the street

#114
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She couldn't. You cannot make someone go to a hospital if they aren't harming themselves or others.

Well you can try. From the post it sounds like she "just" (it was obviously not easy) walked away. I don't see that she involved a psychiatrist or tried to get outpatient treatment (whatever that is called in the US) awarded. AFAIK the latter can be gotten if the person is diagnosed and not living safely, I'd say that's certainly possible. http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/legal-resources/hawai... I'm probably m…

Nope. For your assisted outpatient treatment, for instance, you must show that the person

"have a history of non-compliance with treatment that has: been a significant factor in his or her being in a hospital, prison or jail at least twice within the last thirty-six months or [] resulted in one or more acts, attempts or threats of serious violent behavior toward self or others within the last forty-eight months; and

be unlikely to voluntarily participate in treatment; and

be, in view of his or her treatment history and current behavior, in need of assisted outpatient treatment in order to prevent a relapse or deterioration which would be likely to result in: a substantial risk of physical harm to the patient as manifested by threats of or attempts at suicide or serious bodily harm or conduct demonstrating that the patient is dangerous to himself or herself, or a substantial risk of physical harm to other persons as manifested by homicidal or other violent behavior by which others are placed in reasonable fear of serious physical harm"

etc. So if he hasn't showed that he's going to harm himself or someone else, there's no help from our health care system, whether the government or insurance. No one will admit him and no one will pay for it. Trying to forcibly or bodily move the guy would be a crime for the daughter.

http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/aot/assisted-outpatient-treat...

Re: I found my father living on the street

#115
I read (or skimmed) most of the comments here first, before reading the article. The content of the article was not what I expected after reading the debate here about whether or not to just lock up "crazy"/homeless people.

I am currently homeless. I am not mentally ill. I am medically handicapped. I am very clear what I need. I need an income that does not keep me sick. I find it frustrating to read discussions of this sort.

I think a lot of people on the street would be far better off and face far fewer barriers to getting their life back together if there was dramatically less prejudice. Most homeless people are on the street because they have overwhelming personal problems that society does not have good solutions for, not because these individuals are incompetent. Even if you are extraordinarily competent and know exactly what you need and want in order to get your life functional again, the degree to which you face prejudice and people who are dismissive, disrespectful, and controlling makes it an uphill battle, much more so than I think it really needs to be.

The baseline difficulties are plenty hard on their own if you have certain conditions. But facing so much social stigma and often offered "help" of a sort that makes you want to scream "Please stop helping me!" while denied access to the kinds of help you actually need, that more middle class people can more readily access, sometimes just for asking because they don't face the same stigma and prejudice -- that alone is pretty crazy making. It usually does not go over well to try to comment on such frustrations. People want to see themselves as good and right and do not want to hear that they are making things harder and are behaving in a classist manner. I am often at a loss as to where can you talk about such things and have it be a productive discussion?

I think that really needs to change. If we can change that, then being homeless becomes less of a trap that seems nigh impossible to escape.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#116
post #2

Beautiful story. Not very relative to HN I think, but it's good to see the world throught other points of view, sometimes. Thanks for this post.

"Beautiful story. Not very relative to HN I think..." I've been noticing a number of mental health related things on HN. Perhaps it's because these things hit closer to home among this demographic - weather it be personal experience, or that guy we worked with who eventually broke down. For whatever reason these do get voted up here.

Wobbling plates from autism one week, demonstrating the fully armed and operational self-guided self-medicating death-optional star the next. Sure it's not hard dystopian adventure, but if you sit down and write design rules in one mode only, your clone army's going to let you know about the code smell.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who decides who has control over their mental faculties? Who decides who is competent? The state? The family? The physician? Can you imagine scenarios where the state, or the family, or the physician are incompetent, selfish, or malicious in determining the competence of a person? I believe there are MANY such scenarios. This isn't a hypothetical for me... like the author of the article we're discussing, I've had…

> But who decides who has control over their mental faculties? Who decides who is competent? The state? The family? The physician? Who is the most competent to make this decision? The medical professional. Of course government (advised by medical professionals) will set the policy which will constrain the possible decisions. > Can you imagine scenarios where the state, or the family, or the physician are incompetent,…

Note that countries used to do a lot more forced institutionalization than they do now. There were lots of abuses (even in the West, to say nothing of the way it worked in the Soviet Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_... should be a must-read for anyone arguing for government involvement in institutionalization decisions) and people have backed away from that sort of thing.

It's possible that Europe and the US have swung too much to the other extreme now, of course. But as you say this is very much not black and white.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#118
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of society lets a mentally ill man roam the streets, deteriorating, instead of institutionalising him and helping him recover? What gives you the authority to institutionalize him? This isn't a snide question. It's a very difficult question that leads to a whole raft of difficult questions. How do you force a person to take their medication? Why should you do it for this particular person but not that par…

> What gives you the authority to institutionalize him? A government has the duty to provide for the welfare of their people. It's every government's goal to make their people healthier. > How do you force a person to take their medication? In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. > Why should you do it for this particular person but not that particular person? If a person's m…

Your very insistence that you have the only right point of view on this makes me even more against ever allowing anybody who thinks like you the power to involuntarily commit anybody.

The USA, for all it's flaws, is supposed to be based on the idea that the people are not subservient to the Government's goals, but instead, the Government is subservient to the peoples' rights. That they can only be deprived of their rights through due process of law, as passed by elected legislature. Not a "scientific" book written by people who have no accountability to the population as a whole.

I fear you would not understand how important this is unless you yourself were involuntarily committed. It may well already be true that a malicious individual with enough knowledge could look at your current lifestyle and find a justification for committing you and injecting you with things against your will. I'm sure that such a thing could happen under the rules that you seem to advocate. I hope such a thing never happens to you, but I fear that there are many people who would not see the importance until it does.

It's as much a part of the human condition that power corrupts as it is that we are subject to mental illnesses at times. Many say that it will never happen here. I say that (to quote a line from Battlestar Galactica) all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#119
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many other good answers, but here's an anecdote: In Oslo, near the university, there used by a "cave dweller". A by all accounts bright student who at 25 decided to stop washing himself. He was soon thrown out of his student accommodation because of the smell. He then decided to take up residence under a tarp in a makeshift "cave" in a hillside next to the university where he stayed for the following two and half dec…

I had to coerce a friend into getting mental help. He had made some self-destructive statements and a mutual friend reached out to me for help. Several of us scheduled an intervention to try to convince him to go get help and the day before the intervention, he made some more self-destructive statements so that same mutual friend called me and I went to his apartment. He looked like death warmed over. He hadn't been…

This story made my day. Thank you.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#120
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to coerce a friend into getting mental help. He had made some self-destructive statements and a mutual friend reached out to me for help. Several of us scheduled an intervention to try to convince him to go get help and the day before the intervention, he made some more self-destructive statements so that same mutual friend called me and I went to his apartment. He looked like death warmed over. He hadn't been…

This story made my day. Thank you.

He is my friend. There's very little that I won't do to help a friend who is truly in need.
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