I found my father living on the street • Hacker News Board

Re: I found my father living on the street

#71

Post by chris_wot » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:41 PM UTC

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #59

DanBC wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're asking for is that people who have the ability to chose (where to live; what medical treatment to have) are denied that choice. > In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. Schizophrenia is a lifelong illness. Do you keep someone imprisoned for the rest of their life so that you can forcibly medicate them against their will?

> Schizophrenia is a lifelong illness. Do you keep someone imprisoned for the rest of their life so that you can forcibly medicate them against their will? No, until the mental disorder is controlled. After all avenues of curing are exhausted, and it's still not under control, then they can be released, provided there's no significant risk that they'll harm others or themselves.

There is no cure for schizophrenia. I wish there was, but there isn't.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#72

Post by chris_wot » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:45 PM UTC

nikolay wrote: post #30

DominikR wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mentally ill persons enjoy the same rights that other citizens enjoy and have their own free will. As long as a person didn't commit any crime and is no risk to society or oneself you cannot institutionalize him or her. In any case I would refrain from making such broad generalizations about a society. Some societies prefer strong individual rights and others prefer a strong state that tells them what to do.

I doubled a mentally ill person has anything resembling "free will"...

I have quite bad depression. That's a mental illness, and I have free will.

My brother-in-law has very bad schizophrenia. I can assure you, he has free will.

You speak about mentally ill people like they are subhuman. They aren't - they are people with the capacity for agency and they have rights. And they should be treated with more respect.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#73

Post by turbostyler » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:45 PM UTC

Does anyone know why this story is suddenly in the news? I remember reading her original post at least a year ago, which had all of the same photos. Now, I'm seeing it all over Reddit and here. It feels like that Gotye song all over again.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#74

Post by cryoshon » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:45 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #52

DominikR wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can very objectively prove that a person is missing a limb but often you cannot prove that a person is mentally ill. Often persons will be categorized as mentally ill just because they deviate in their beliefs or lifestyle from the mainstream culture. And yes, mentally ill persons HAVE a free will, don't tell me they don't as this would be equal to declaring that they are not human beings but just a lump of meat.…

To add to your answer: mental illness isn't all or nothing, it's not either you're a normal person with free will vs. you're crazy and everything you say is crazy. People with depression, bipolar, many other mental illnesses could be completely normal when you meet them but still classified as having a mental illness. It's possible to keep a normal life, a normal job, yet be aware that you are, in some way, "mentally…

This is exactly the problem! The label of "mental illness" is enough for people to throw out the complete capacity of a person merely because they have troubles in a few spots. It's frustrating.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#75

Post by cryoshon » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

Really enjoyed this story, the pictures at the end are very rewarding to see.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#76

Post by vidarh » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:48 PM UTC

herbert_cassidy wrote: post #56

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people don't have control over their mental faculties; they aren't competent enough to make a choice for what is best for them in the same way that minors aren't allowed to go truant or to consent to sex with an adult. If you are all there in the head, by all means live on the streets, stay filthy, don't eat and ignore people, but this man has a brain disease that makes him lose control of his mind. If he was f…

I think this is the problem left-wing/liberal/socialist thinking. It sounds great - nobody should be on the streets - we have enough resources to house everyone. And then a little while later it's some kind of totalitarian nightmare with people forced to live in institutions as you think you know better for them, and anyone who doesn't agree with your way of life must be insane.

As a left-wing/liberal/socialist, I both believe nobody should need to be on the street, and that it's totally unacceptable for the state to use force to put people in institutions without very strict checks on mental competence.

I find your notion that there's some slippery slope where we'll suddenly want to force people into institutions quite bizarre.

A lot of socialist thinking, on the contrary justifies the need for a welfare system and redistribution with arguments that true liberty is only possible once there are protections in place which ensures that you do not just have the legal opportunity to make your own choices, but also the means to realistically be able to make choices.

On that basis, the argument both for giving people help to get off the street and restricting the states ability to interfere if you chose untraditional lifestyles is the same: Maximizing liberty.

Now, given the old socialist joke that if you put two socialists in a room, you'll get three incompatible definitions of socialism, there may be socialists out there more gung-ho about institutionalizing as many people as possible, but I've not met any.

Conversely I'd hesitate to say it's a right wing issue, despite the fact that historically a lot of right wing governments have been very gung-ho about using draconian measures to force people off the streets and into institutions, including the use of police to remove them coupled with work-houses or even prison next to mental institutions, as many have had a long tradition of seeing homelessness or poverty in general as a sign of moral failings that need to be treated harshly.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#77

Post by SpaghettiCat » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:53 PM UTC

ashworth wrote: post #66

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people don't have control over their mental faculties; they aren't competent enough to make a choice for what is best for them in the same way that minors aren't allowed to go truant or to consent to sex with an adult. If you are all there in the head, by all means live on the streets, stay filthy, don't eat and ignore people, but this man has a brain disease that makes him lose control of his mind. If he was f…

But who decides who has control over their mental faculties? Who decides who is competent? The state? The family? The physician? Can you imagine scenarios where the state, or the family, or the physician are incompetent, selfish, or malicious in determining the competence of a person? I believe there are MANY such scenarios. This isn't a hypothetical for me... like the author of the article we're discussing, I've had…

> But who decides who has control over their mental faculties? Who decides who is competent? The state? The family? The physician?

Who is the most competent to make this decision? The medical professional. Of course government (advised by medical professionals) will set the policy which will constrain the possible decisions.

> Can you imagine scenarios where the state, or the family, or the physician are incompetent, selfish, or malicious in determining the competence of a person? I believe there are MANY such scenarios.

This could apply to absolutely everything: evil police officers taking bribes and releasing criminals, doctors not prescribing expensive medicine to save their hospital money, etc. Does that mean we do away with police protection and hospital services entirely? No, as in this case, we have to accept the risk of the person in authority to make the good decision.

I agree this issue is not black and white.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#78

Post by vidarh » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #53

chrisseaton wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people have rights . They have a right to not live in an institution if they don't want to. You want to disregard that right, because you think you know better for them than they do. Many of these people aren't dangerous and don't have infectious diseases, so there's no public health need to lock them up as you're suggesting.

These people don't have control over their mental faculties; they aren't competent enough to make a choice for what is best for them in the same way that minors aren't allowed to go truant or to consent to sex with an adult. If you are all there in the head, by all means live on the streets, stay filthy, don't eat and ignore people, but this man has a brain disease that makes him lose control of his mind. If he was f…

Who are "these people"?

How do you decide which ones amongst them are "all there in the head"?

How do you distinguish between someone sane but eccentric that refuses to speak to you, and is filthy and lives rough vs. someone with a mental illness without applying force?

> If he was forcefully taken to the hospital, forcefully given medication, and recovered he would exclaim "Thank you for saving me!

Some would. Others, as I mentioned in an anecdote elsewhere in this thread, would sue you, appeal the case all the way to the supreme court, and win.

> If I had a mental disorder that made me go crazy--so crazy that it doesn't even enter my mind that I need help--I would hope that my government would restore my sanity (as I am unable to do so).

I would too. The problem is that not everyone living like this have mental disorders that make them incompetent to make their own decisions, and separating the ones with real medical needs from the eccentrics is not straightforward.

A large problem is also that often while the official motivation is to help, the impetus for the "help" is that others take offence at their presence or attribute moral failings to them and want them gone, and don't so much care whether or not it helps the person in question.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#79

Post by SpaghettiCat » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 2:59 PM UTC

leroy_masochist wrote: post #69

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is he has a genuine medical problem: a mental disorder , i.e. it's in the DSM.

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until the mid-1970s. The understanding of relatively highly-occurring afflictions such as PTS and schizophrenia is evolving to this day and it's a near-certainty that the DSM will be a different document 10 years from now. I don't think we should be so cavalier about taking freedom away from people whose main transgression against the rest of society is making…

>Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until the mid-1970s. The understanding of relatively highly-occurring afflictions such as PTS and schizophrenia is evolving to this day and it's a near-certainty that the DSM will be a different document 10 years from now.

Just because it had errors before doesn't discredit the document in its current state; it's the product of scientific investigation. By it's very nature it will make mistakes and then update the conclusions as time goes by. Yes, of course it will be different in 10 years, but currently it is our best understanding of mental ailments and the knowledgebase has come a long way.

> main transgression against the rest of society is making us feel uncomfortable when we look at them.

The main transgression is that the victims are trapped in a cycle of suffering because their brains are malfunctioning and are preventing them from recovering or seeking help to recover.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#80

Post by phkahler » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 3:01 PM UTC

nekgrim wrote: post #2

Beautiful story. Not very relative to HN I think, but it's good to see the world throught other points of view, sometimes. Thanks for this post.

"Beautiful story. Not very relative to HN I think..."

I've been noticing a number of mental health related things on HN. Perhaps it's because these things hit closer to home among this demographic - weather it be personal experience, or that guy we worked with who eventually broke down. For whatever reason these do get voted up here.