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The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

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101–110 of 233 posts

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about scaling out cloud deployments or something here. Building a military takes an incredible amount of lead time. If you don't have a strong standing military force during peacetime, you won't have one during wartime.

Utterly false. Prior to involvement in World War 2, the US had hardly any standing army and rather weak tooling industries (being wiped out by the Great Depression) and yet still managed to field like 2 million troops and vast amounts of weapons for allies in a very short period of time.

Prior to WW2, such mobilizations were possible.

In the post WW2 era though, the increases in firepower and mobility made this point moot. A well orchestrated and timed advance could conquer a nation in days, nuclear weapons not withstanding. the Army's Active Defence doctrine post WW2 reflected this, recgonizing that in the era, a war would be won or lost in the first few battles.

Eisenhower reflected upon this in his Farewell Address. The warning regarding the "Military-Industrial Complex" was placed in the context that such a construct was necessary, but needed to be kept in check:

"Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions."

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#102
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For attacking an enemy that doesn't have and real air defences they shouldn't be using a multirole jet fighter like the F-35 or a jet ground attack aircraft like the A-10. They're both way too expensive to run. They should be using a counter-insurgency aircraft, like the A-26s the Afghan Air Force is about to receive.

Not having a real air force is not the same as not having real air defenses. And the A-10 may be a juicy target for air superiority fighters, it's very resilient against ground-based firepower.

Low and slow the A-10 can out turn just about all air superiority fighters (vectored thrust fighters being the largest exception); as the old saying goes "get down low and go go go". The true enemy of planes like the A-10 is 4th+ gen missiles combined with look down radar.

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#103
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless, of course, you're interested in strafing what's on the ground. If you carry 8 missiles, you have 8 shots. Assuming you can get a lock on what's on the ground. If you have 10-30s of 20mm or larger, you can do wonders on, say, a convoy of trucks. While we used to have different planes for different tasks, the staggering costs of current/future models is killing off such things. And as there's no external threat…

> Unless, of course, you're interested in strafing what's on the ground My (very limited) understanding is this: Against far inferior enemies such as ISIS and the Taliban, strafing works fine. But against peer enemies, such as the Russians, we'll never get close enough to strafe. Also, guided munitions are so much more accurate than unguided ones (such as bullets) that the number of hits is comparable. What we could…

"If we invest in tools to defeat ISIS, we'll get crushed by peer enemies"

As I see it, the only peer enemies of the US are Russia and China. As both of these countries are nuclear powers, war between any of them risks terrible escalation. FWIW, the A-10 was designed to fight Soviet tanks in Europe, and I doubt the top armour of tanks has thickened that much since then. And there's lots of APC's and other semi-hard targets that would be killed just fine.

Better 10-100 A-10's than 5-10 F-35's. For pretty much any conflict without nuclear overtones the loiter time, inherent survivability and weapon delivery systems on the "old, boring" A-10 is the way to go.

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bulk of the requirements for the F-35 are perfectly reasonable; a stealthier replacement for the F-16 and F/A-18, which essentially perform the same role but the Air Force chose one and the Navy chose the other. If you could get a next generation light fighter-bomber to replace both, and make it stealthy enough to replace the F-117 at the same time, that would be the perfectly reasonable aircraft. As it stands, t…

> it's not like the enemy isn't going to notice the slowly hovering jet plane that's strafing them and shooting missiles at them I thought the STOVL was designed to enable take off and landing without airfields and aircraft carriers. Are you sure the intent is that it will hover over the battlefield while attacking? Current planes seem to hit targets fine while flying at a much safer hundreds of miles/hour.

The main platform for Marine STOVLs is pocket carriers; littoral assault carriers that lack cats and traps. Quite often they also carry amphibious landing craft as well.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_assault_ship

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the F/A-18, which, if you count all of its variants, is one of the most successful naval aircraft of all time despite having a very ambitious multi-role mission. How is it "successful"? Has one ever been in a real fight? Almost all of our airplanes are untested (which is a good thing).

Yes, several. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F/A-18_Hornet... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#O... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_EA-18G_Growler#Operation...

Thanks. Doesn't that seems like a tiny sample, and aren't those far inferior foes?

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#106

What should have been. https://www.google.com/search?q=boeing+joint+strike+fighter&...

Why? It's easy to look at rosy predictions but is there any reason to think that this project would have avoided the same systemic problems which have been endemic for the F-35? A quick glance at the Wikipedia page shows several questionable elements of the design, all of which seem to be due to the same problem of requiring one design to fill too many roles.

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless, of course, you're interested in strafing what's on the ground My (very limited) understanding is this: Against far inferior enemies such as ISIS and the Taliban, strafing works fine. But against peer enemies, such as the Russians, we'll never get close enough to strafe. Also, guided munitions are so much more accurate than unguided ones (such as bullets) that the number of hits is comparable. What we could…

"If we invest in tools to defeat ISIS, we'll get crushed by peer enemies" As I see it, the only peer enemies of the US are Russia and China. As both of these countries are nuclear powers, war between any of them risks terrible escalation. FWIW, the A-10 was designed to fight Soviet tanks in Europe, and I doubt the top armour of tanks has thickened that much since then. And there's lots of APC's and other semi-hard ta…

> the A-10 was designed to fight Soviet tanks in Europe, and I doubt the top armour of tanks has thickened that much since then. And there's lots of APC's and other semi-hard targets that would be killed just fine.

From what I understand, the A-10 was designed for that role as it was envisioned in the 1970s, 40 years ago. The air defenses have greatly improved since then and planes like the A-10 won't get near the battlefield.

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#108
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless, of course, you're interested in strafing what's on the ground. If you carry 8 missiles, you have 8 shots. Assuming you can get a lock on what's on the ground. If you have 10-30s of 20mm or larger, you can do wonders on, say, a convoy of trucks. While we used to have different planes for different tasks, the staggering costs of current/future models is killing off such things. And as there's no external threat…

> Unless, of course, you're interested in strafing what's on the ground My (very limited) understanding is this: Against far inferior enemies such as ISIS and the Taliban, strafing works fine. But against peer enemies, such as the Russians, we'll never get close enough to strafe. Also, guided munitions are so much more accurate than unguided ones (such as bullets) that the number of hits is comparable. What we could…

But against peer enemies, such as the Russians, we'll never get close enough to strafe.

How many times have US forces fought the Russians since 1776?

Also, given that the US military budget is bigger than the next ten combined, it's probably possible that both situations can be covered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e...

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#109
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a friendly reminder why governments and large corporations can't develop shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

Totally agree with you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11

Too bad they couldn't repeat that kind of success https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle

Re: The Little “Fighter” That Couldn’t: Moral Hazard and the F-35

#110
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both cases it was do or die. Right now is do or ... meh.

I wouldn't be wholly surprised if the entire point of the F35 is to make money off of it. Either by selling it to foreign countries, or by exploiting the large influx of tax money. If that was your goal, it is win-win, no matter if the project fails. And that's where I'd peg the fundamental problem.

In a way, maybe. Defense contractors have figured out that they need to distribute facilities into numerous congressional districts.
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