I'm surprised he didn't mention the volumetric efficiency of compressed hydrogen compared to gasoline when comparing the specific energy density of the two fuels. Yes, you have more than 3x the energy per unit mass, but you have more than 5.5x less energy per unit volume. So instead of a simple 12 gallon gas tank, you need a 66+ gallon pressure vessel adding plenty of weight and taking up volume that would otherwise be useful for cargo or other purposes.
Why fuel cell cars don't work
101–110 of 175 posts
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#102ex-FC researcher here. pretty much gets it. some other context: it's hydrogen for cars because of the chemistry ie, start-up, shut-down and response times. most FC claims are more of a 'displaced emmissions' scheme than zero-emmissions (unless you're in say, NZ where we have @#$# loads of renewables on our grid). PEM fuel cells are limited to 100 dC due to the hydrogen ion transport via liquid water - that's a problem. at this temp you need exotic metals like Platinum to crack the molecules open for rxn - that's a problem, especially if you're into ethical mining/sourcing. FC cars will need to operate like whiteware or, well cars do now but literally be a small chemical plant. storing hydrogen isn't as easy as people think, it can really screw up 'normal' metals (lone protons are very tricky little @##@s to keep track of). having said all that, FC are fascinating from a tech perspective but IMHO, reasonably sized, high temperature FCs working in highly deregulated markets are about the only place they'll work at all and even then, there's a lot of competition with faster technology iteration rates. i've been reading the same articles since the early-90s - FC car tech is always about 10 years away.
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#103Get back to me when a practical, affordable, and go over 300 mile on a charge, battery powered car is here. Currently batteries are not a practical replacement. Currently if you want to hit near 300, you don't quite get there, your in the eighty thousand plus range if that low after common options for your only real choice. Home charging is still a four hour plus affair with the best chargers. Odd he claims that a hu…
Currently technology is OK. Your reference to 300 miles is probably based on your most extreme situation when you go on a long trip. If the charging network (DC fast charging, in under 30 mins) is there, 300 miles isn't a problem. I have a Nissan Leaf with 160 km range and it has never been a problem yet. Home charging is perfectly fine, every morning my car is full. I will never need a faster charger at home. Fast c…
In my case, I live in a city of 200,000 in the lower 48, and according to Tesla's website, the nearest open access charger is 347 miles away. Now I expect those numbers to go down, but currently, a Tesla would be a toy and not a viable means of transportation given my driving habits. I have no issue with alternative fuels such as electric or HFC, but it it is going to be a very long time before it is viable in low density parts of the country, at least for me.
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#104For those curious to hear Elon's stance (as an electric car maker with a large bet on lithium ion batteries, he's obviously biased): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_e7rA4fBAo&t=10m8s
At least he can back up his claims with science.
Agreed. I think his arguments are very sound and rational.
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#105I thought fuel cells were debunked 10 years ago? The sad part is that power distribution and storage for wind isn't keeping up. Here in Minnesota, Buffalo Ridge Power (BR is one of the windiest places in the nation), many of the multi-megawatt turbines are forced to idle down because there's no place for the power to go. A logical place to put this power is in fuel cells.
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt this is the case. If anything, the reasons you give boil down to: "the core of the car - the moving vehicle bit - will become commodity" and when this happens, cars will become "cars" like phones are now "phones," as in, they're not so much phones anymore as tiny computers that can also make calls. And this will definitely NOT increase their lifetime. If anything, it will decrease it... just like we replace o…
Most car parts are already commodities anyway though. Example: Toyota and Lexus share almost every single part of the power train, its only the finishings that are different. And most car parts are made by a small number of OEM providers who sell to all the major car companies. Bosch, Denso, and Magna make most of the parts in your car.
The reason Toyota and Lexus share most things is because Lexus is a Toyota-car (just another name/brand).
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it's more efficient to use batteries, these are all entry level arguments. Perhaps I misread the audience. The infrastructure cost is totally different. Electrolysis and immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap. We don't have a lot of places where for a significant portion of time when there is excess power from renewables, but we will, in the future. Edit: To clarify: if you want to produce say 40% of yo…
>immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap Where did you get this idea? You have to keep liquid hydrogen extremely chilled, under extreme pressure, and it inevitably leaks out. Compare to pumped water energy storage, which is at ambient temperature and pressure and has similar efficiency to the electrolysis -> fuel-cell cycle.
Stored in any way, it's cheap compared to batteries.
Also many places don't have reservoirs and mountains for pumped storage.
I'm not a big believer in the hydrogen economy, but at least incorrect notions should be corrected ("no source of hydrogen besides natural gas to be seen").
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it's more efficient to use batteries, these are all entry level arguments. Perhaps I misread the audience. The infrastructure cost is totally different. Electrolysis and immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap. We don't have a lot of places where for a significant portion of time when there is excess power from renewables, but we will, in the future. Edit: To clarify: if you want to produce say 40% of yo…
>immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap Where did you get this idea? You have to keep liquid hydrogen extremely chilled, under extreme pressure, and it inevitably leaks out. Compare to pumped water energy storage, which is at ambient temperature and pressure and has similar efficiency to the electrolysis -> fuel-cell cycle.
How much additional cost is incurred by converting the hydrogen to methane (combining with atmospheric CO2), then utilizing existing gas infrastructure?
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#109Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…
He was too nice to go there: Toyota's announced fuel cell car is expensive and has very poor performance. The fundamental problem is that high power fuel cells are very expensive, linear power with cost. And that expense doesn't seem to be changing quickly. I'd like to believe that Toyota is making rational choices based on their experience with hybrids. But I'm having a hard time believing that.
> The fundamental problem is that high power fuel cells are very expensive, linear power with cost.
Does anyone talk about using fuel cells as auxiliary range-extenders to electric vehicles? If they're best at low power, and also highly efficient, they'd should be very good pootling away in the background, topping up a battery from a tank of methanol.
Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Currently technology is OK. Your reference to 300 miles is probably based on your most extreme situation when you go on a long trip. If the charging network (DC fast charging, in under 30 mins) is there, 300 miles isn't a problem. I have a Nissan Leaf with 160 km range and it has never been a problem yet. Home charging is perfectly fine, every morning my car is full. I will never need a faster charger at home. Fast c…
In my case, I live in a city of 200,000 in the lower 48, and according to Tesla's website, the nearest open access charger is 347 miles away. Now I expect those numbers to go down, but currently, a Tesla would be a toy and not a viable means of transportation given my driving habits. I have no issue with alternative fuels such as electric or HFC, but it it is going to be a very long time before it is viable in low de…
Tesla chargers are only for Tesla, sadly.
As much as I love them, I cannot use them either with my Nissan Leaf.
And yes, central and the lower states of US are behind in term of sales AND charging options available.
Hopefully this will change!