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Stop and Seize

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Stop and Seize

#101

Post by [deleted] »

vfclists wrote: post #56
lettergram wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries. How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers? Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that…

[deleted]

Re: Stop and Seize

#102

Post by daeken »

icantthinkofone wrote: post #32
zorrb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I think most reasonable people would agree the Washington Post is pretty much a joke at this point. However, I have toe vehemently disagree with your rationale. This line of thinking has to stop. Just because YOU can't think of any reason to carry "large" sums of money doesn't mean there IS no legitimate reason. Innocent until proven guilty, all that jazz. "Think about it. Why would YOU, wear sagging jeans?" Al…

Tell me a legitimate reason to carry thousands of dollars of cash around. While some, here, will think of outlier reasons and point to a few "two thousand dollar" situations, the point of the whole thing is that there are a multitude of tens and hundreds of thousands and millions in cash that ARE stopped and picked up all the time for illegal reasons and the POST (and posters here) are ignoring that fact. (Except for…

Last week, I switched banks. Rather than wiring the funds or spending money on an official check, I took out all my money in cash and brought it to the new bank. I could have been buying a kilo of coke, or funding terrorist activity, but I was just switching to a bank that's present in the state I moved to. I've done this twice before, and amazingly, I'm still not a criminal.

Re: Stop and Seize

#103

Post by chongli »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #4

The local governments invariable claim it's not about the money; it's about safety or some such. I want an amendment that puts all the money from fines, seizures, etc. to the national debt. That's the closest thing to a black hole for money I can think of. Watch them scream then. Not about the money, my ass.

No, we should pass a law barring law enforcement from seizing property in any case until a judgment has been reached in a court of law.

Re: Stop and Seize

#104

Post by _ak »

lostcolony wrote: post #10

'“9/11 caused a lot of officers to realize they should be out there looking for those kind of people,” said David Frye, a part-time Nebraska county deputy sheriff who serves as chief instructor at Desert Snow and was operations director of Black Asphalt. “When money is taken from an organization, it hurts them more than when they lose the drugs.”' Wait, what? I was unaware that 9/11 was perpetrated by drug trafficker…

9/11 is ultimately making the terrorists win because otherwise they terrorist might win.

Re: Stop and Seize

#105

Post by silencio »

kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

I could throw out a few situations that have happened to me in the last few months:

- People that gave me cash in an envelope at my wedding, as it's cheaper than getting a money order/bank check if you don't write a regular check that takes forever to clear with large amounts. Don't want to think about how much I was carting back home that night. Hell, replace wedding with any situation - I have had to cart around a fair amount of money in general between my parents and their friends that are in a war with each other over gifts/paying for things, sometimes unknowingly when people stuff an envelope in my purse/bag or somewhere in my car and then only tell me after the fact. (If you're Asian, you know what I'm talking about.)

- Me hauling ~$5k to go straight from my restaurant and bank across the street, to one of a couple of restaurant supply stores that offer a cash discount because they don't want to deal with fraud and fees (and nor do I). It's rare I buy a piece of equipment with cash, but sometimes it's urgent so I go in person instead of ordering it online.

- The other day, dad was in the hospital and they wanted payment asap. I had been in a rush and I didn't have my CCs on me only like $60 in cash and an ID, so I went to my restaurant and brought the payment over that was otherwise going to be deposited in the bank later that day.

Some of this is cultural though - older or still very Asian folks that like the feel of cold, hard cash. They're a lot of small business owners with businesses that deal with a lot of cash on a regular basis too. So you know what some of the deal is ;)

Having dealt with $10k+ checks in general though, I almost want to just deal with cash but it's just too easy to lose. I deposited a ~$50k bank check in my business account that took _three weeks_ to clear. As in, fully guaranteed by the bank funds. When they're not and they're just personal checks, I've occasionally gotten a stinkeye from bank tellers, nevermind the pain of going to the bank to deposit a check in the 5 figures in the first place (typically can't ATM or app deposit) - even though that's not uncommon for me (not even 1mo of contracting, or my parents' gift to me for my wedding).

Re: Stop and Seize

#106

Post by kohanz »

agwa wrote: post #91
kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

Almost everything involving a bank costs money. Checking accounts have both monthly fees and overdraft fees. Check books cost money. If you're well-off, as virtually all HN commenters are, the fees aren't a big deal or they're waived entirely. If you're poor, as virtually all the victims of roadside asset forfeiture are, the fees are significant so you just don't use banks. That means you end up having to carry large…

I can see how one might come to the assumption that the victims here are "poor", and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are, but I didn't see any suggestion of that in the article. I would presume that the less well-off victims did not have the legal resources (as these men did) to challenge the police's actions.

Of the three victims that were profiled, 2 were business owners, all 3 (presumably) owned vehicles, and were carrying anywhere from $18k to $75. Now, that doesn't mean they were well off, but it's also not sounding like most people's definition of poverty. Surely business owners have to deal with the costs of bank transactions.

Again, I'm not trying to blame the victims here. I think they were wronged and that the police are overstepping their mandate. I do empathize with what happened to them. However, I've had enough experiences in life to form the belief that while at the same time you should stand up and speak against wrongdoings like this, you should also protect yourself as best you can, knowing that these things, sadly, will happen. That's where my original question originated from. For example, I don't keep valuables in my car, because while I know that the thieves who break into my car once or twice a year are completely in the wrong, I know I am putting myself at risk if I leave stuff in there for them to take. I'm not going to leave stuff in the car out of principle, because it's my "right".

Re: Stop and Seize

#107

Post by dropit_sphere »

kghose wrote: post #57
kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

I share your sentiments. I'm more ambivalent about this process than I should be, as an admirer of the checks and balances in our constitution. I would suspect that the vast majority of such hauls is drug money laundering related. "Normal" folks would be scared of losing such cash or having it stolen. I know I would be petrified at the thought. However, there are probably a few folks who don't use banks (don't trust…

> However, there are probably a few folks who don't use banks (don't trust 'em or don't use 'em just because) and this is how they buy a house or buy a car or go from one state to another with their possessions.

It may help to compare cash to bitcoin to help you imagine it. One of bitcoin's motivations is, "Why does the convenience of electronic transfer come bundled with central authority?"

If you can reduce middle-man risk, that's a good thing. Banks have lost reputation with the poor to the point that it's seen as less risky to transport sums in cash.

Re: Stop and Seize

#108

Post by angersock »

kordless wrote: post #85
vfclists wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries. How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers? Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that…

First off, you are using a TON of blaming statements (which are mostly ad hominem) and are using a trolling technique to attempt poll others for feelings. It's a nasty habit and your comments only serve to make someone angry. I believe you are aware of your intent and only use it to illicit fear. We still have enough liberty here that this article can run in the newspaper freely. That is evidence enough America is fa…

Eh, their post was their opinion, and they've got some decent points. Your accusation of ad hominem is misapplied--go look it up.

The observation was made that the real damage to the US would come from within and not without. This seems trivially easy to "prove" if you keep up with the news and history.

The observation was made that broad swathes of government and private practice were in league to perpetuate these issues. Such behavior is expected because of the mechanism of action at work: the rot and the power is in the legislative and judicial systems, so of course those folks will be acting in concert.

The observation was made that in other "corrupt" countries officers routinely relieve travelers of excess pecuniary baggage, which appears to also be the case in some parts of the US.

These are not ad hominem propositions, nor were they presented as such.

Re: Stop and Seize

#109

Post by serf »

ProAm wrote: post #52
shin_lao wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Why would I want to pay in cash? It's neither convenient nor safe.

It's silly to force an unnecessary third party into a business transaction if you dont need to. Money exists for a reason. Cash is king.

Beyond any reason, I agree with this most.

Our current way of living insists on third party participation during even A -> B trades, it's ridiculous and inefficient.

Re: Stop and Seize

#110

Post by foobarian »

zorrb wrote: post #28
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in practice the "fuck you, I know my rights" approach is the worst one. Just take 20 minutes to hide your cash properly and in a friendly voice say "sure officer, go ahead and search." He's not going to find it.

This is terrible advice on multiple levels. Absolutely you shouldn't be leaving the money out in the open, and should probably hide it. You should absolutely NEVER give consent to search your car. You have no idea what a person is capable of until it's too late. I'm not saying the cop will plant something, though it wouldn't be the first time, but you also have NO IDEA what might be in your car accidentally.

If there is just the cop and you, how does giving consent or not matter? Assuming there are no recording devices it's his word against yours. The best course of action seems to not piss them off, because they sure seem like they have all the cards.
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