“Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X • Hacker News Board

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#101

Post by dannypgh » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #40

dannypgh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would love to see a citation for what you mean by "reactionary racism" - especially from the period in Malcolm's life after he split with the NOI in favor of Sunni Islam. It is true that there are many reactionary elements of NOI ideology and I'm sure you can find all sorts of snippets of quotes from when Malcolm was with them, but not only did he walk away from them, he ultimately gave his life in part because of hi…

Klansmen and corrupt police from the 60s were racist. So was Malcolm X. "Usually the black racist has been produced by the white racist. In most cases where you see it, it is the reaction to white racism, and if you analyze it closely, it's not really black racism... If we react to white racism with a violent reaction, to me that's not black racism. If you come to put a rope around my neck and I hang you for it, to m…

Your concept of hatred here is what I would describe as self defense. I draw a distinction between racial prejudice - that is, prejudging people based on their race - and racism - which I understand as a social-political-economic system of institutionalized racial oppression.

Racial prejudice is an order of magnitude less interesting to me than racial oppression. I am a person of color and I know that people see me and think all sorts of things about me because of things beyond my control; this bothers me, but it doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I've been physically attacked and harassed for walking around my own neighborhood, and it doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I know that I and many of my loved ones will, even holding all else equal, have worse outcomes with job interviews, police, and law enforcement because of our race. To me that's real racism, and it's not something that white people can experience in our society.

Stamping out racial prejudice is a worthwhile goal, but in my opinion it's an order of magnitude less important than ending racist systems. The focus on racial prejudice is likely to create lots of bad analysis (e.g. people who aspire to make the world "colorblind") from otherwise well-intentioned people, so I don't think it's tactically sound to focus on prejudice. I also do not believe there is any moral standing to criticize survivors of racism for having prejudicial feelings towards white people. It is a response. People build these walls because they're tired of getting hurt.

I have tactical objections and moral concerns with many things concerning the NOI but I do not judge people for their involvement or promotion of it, for as long as it's motivated by a desire for self-liberation. I'm not sure what the "atrocious stuff" you're worried about from his past is, but nothing I know from his past I consider as "evil" that I have to "ignore." The coffee and creamer allegory, etc. simply don't bother me, because I understand them in historical context.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#102

Post by Avshalom » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:13 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #76

omgtehblackbloc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When one condemns a group for the actions of a few -- i'll never believe that to be correct." Racism in America is not an act , it's a caste system . It's not something you do, it's a form of social structuring. Black people are systematically disadvantaged, and white people receive privileges due to their race. So you're wrong that racism is just "the actions of a few". This implies that you are a neutral white per…

What if you are wrong? You seem to think it's important to believe there is a caste system, which is moving close to Abrahamic Religion territory - you have to believe because (sometimes irrational) faith becomes the very bedrock of your belief system. You you don't believe, you are part of the problem, right?

Well if tehblackbloc's wrong then racism in america is the action of quite a lot of people and the inaction of many more.

"fuck those people" still aint exactly unreasonable.

Though I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was "important to believe there is a caste system" from what was pretty much a cut and paste definition of racism as used in large chunks of civil rights activism/academia.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#103

Post by ezy » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:14 PM UTC

novacole wrote: post #68

hueving wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the standard bullshit apologetics of "the bad things they do don't count because they are an oppressed minority". Why do you think they can't be held up to the same ethical standards as the majority? Are you implying they are to incompetent to think?

Lol I certainly don't think I or the majority of other black people are too incompetent to think. What I am saying is that if a white person has stupid racist views, I don't care. Unless that racist person is in power, what difference does it make that they are an idiot? Of course black people can hold racist views, just as whites can but blacks aren't the majority in power, and so those stupid views have no real eff…

A lot of this hinges on whether you believe you should be exempt from your own moral standard.

The idea of "racism" as requiring a position of power comes most directly as a reaction to the "reverse racism" bullshit from racist apologists who want to roll back affirmative action and various other programs. The reaction comes from sympathetic academics and writers who would rather focus on words and philosophy, and are better at that, than practical issues "on the ground" so to speak. And yet, AA is an example of something which is known to be imperfect, but is needed in some practical sense -- much like the tracking of race or gender ratios in various careers. I think it's a huge mistake to attempt to redefine words in terms of power, because it plays into the corrupting idea of power as the ultimate goal of human endeavor.

The reverse racism shit is really dumb, but the proper response is that there is no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, and that racism is borne from improper over-generalization and a unwillingness to examine ones own prejudices about the world. It is not borne from attempting to correct for those things in other people (e.g. AA, etc.).

Racist views may be understandable as a reaction to oppression by the oppressed, and you make allowances for human frailty -- it is still not generally acceptable. Redefining the word "racist", or any negative epithet, such that it can never be used against your particular group, whoever they are, is just an invitation to corruption.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#104

Post by robgibbons » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:20 PM UTC

justizin wrote: post #66

tomjen3 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it still worth reading for somebody who despise the man? Both what he was (a robber) and what he became?

Seems to me there isn't anyone for whom it would be more worth reading.

This is one of the most insightful comments I've read in recent memory.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#105

Post by moo » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:39 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #95

moo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To address things scientifically you need to talk about groups not individuals in isolation. Ghettos, police profiling, stop and frisk, exonerated death sentences based on DNA testing, dog-whistle politics, voter ID laws, and U.S. media can statistically be argued to show that the U.S. is racist against racial minorities. To speak scientifically you need to address group behavior and what perpetuates that group behav…

>If you want to address Black or Latino racism then show the group power which is oppressing whites. This doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying that whites didn't oppress blacks(because they did) or that white people are now being oppressed by minorities(because they aren't). I was simply explaining that racism is not a synonym for racial oppression. Racism is a specific word with a specific…

Focus solely on individual behavior when addressing racism will only cause institutional racism to be hidden in society. Statistics will show what institutional bias exist and then legal interventions done where required. Maybe the U.S. is not capable of fixing its racist problem. But history has shown that state force has been required in schools, the military, and the private sector to reduce racism.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#106

Post by ubernostrum » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:39 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #81

tesq wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you despise the man?

I'm not tomjen3 or even that up on Malcolm X but note from Wikipedia that when that when with the Nation of Islam he taught that "white people are 'devils' that blacks are superior to whites, and that the demise of the white race is imminent." and that he split with the Nation of Islam over saying the Kennedy assassination was 'chickens coming home to roost' while they sent condolences to the family. All seems a bit…

and that he split with the Nation of Islam over saying the Kennedy assassination was 'chickens coming home to roost' while they sent condolences to the family

Except... he split from the Nation after making a pilgrimage to Mecca and seeing people of all races getting along, helping each other and united in a single purpose. That fundamentally changed his views on race (and his religion -- from what the Nation taught, to more orthodox Islam). It is absolutely no coincidence that he was assassinated by members of the Nation shortly afterward.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#107

Post by phaus » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:54 PM UTC

moo wrote: post #105

phaus wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want to address Black or Latino racism then show the group power which is oppressing whites. This doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying that whites didn't oppress blacks(because they did) or that white people are now being oppressed by minorities(because they aren't). I was simply explaining that racism is not a synonym for racial oppression. Racism is a specific word with a specific…

Focus solely on individual behavior when addressing racism will only cause institutional racism to be hidden in society. Statistics will show what institutional bias exist and then legal interventions done where required. Maybe the U.S. is not capable of fixing its racist problem. But history has shown that state force has been required in schools, the military, and the private sector to reduce racism.

>Focus solely on individual behavior when addressing racism will only cause institutional racism to be hidden in society.

I'm not focusing on individual behavior. As a matter of fact, I wasn't talking about behavior at all. I was just talking about the meaning of the word racism.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#108

Post by moo » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:55 PM UTC

jmaygarden wrote: post #97

moo wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?!!! How the hell were schools in the U.S. South desegregated in the early 60's but with force of troops.

Huh? What does that have to do with changing the meaning of words?

Racism Is any action or attitude, conscious or unconscious, that subordinates an individual or group based on skin colour or race. It can be enacted individually or institutionally.

Source: US Civil Rights Commission

How is a white person subordinated and controlled in the U.S. based on race to where that white person does not have recourse to the the law, the courts, the police, them finding another job, or just avoiding the offending person? If you have a problem with a person you avoid them or address the law. Racially oppressed people don't escape the situation so easily hence why racism is debilitating.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#109

Post by moo » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 9:58 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #107

moo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focus solely on individual behavior when addressing racism will only cause institutional racism to be hidden in society. Statistics will show what institutional bias exist and then legal interventions done where required. Maybe the U.S. is not capable of fixing its racist problem. But history has shown that state force has been required in schools, the military, and the private sector to reduce racism.

>Focus solely on individual behavior when addressing racism will only cause institutional racism to be hidden in society. I'm not focusing on individual behavior. As a matter of fact, I wasn't talking about behavior at all. I was just talking about the meaning of the word racism.

As I posted elsewhere. Racism Is any action or attitude, conscious or unconscious, that subordinates an individual or group based on skin colour or race. It can be enacted individually or institutionally.

Source: US Civil Rights Commission

How is a white person subordinated and controlled in the U.S. based on race to where that white person does not have recourse to the the law, the courts, the police, them finding another job, or just avoiding the offending person? If you have a problem with a person you avoid them or address the law. Racially oppressed people don't escape the situation so easily hence why racism is debilitating.

If you are white in the U.S. you are not going to get racially subordinated. Stop worrying, you are just going to make yourself sick.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#110

Post by theOnliest » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 10:02 PM UTC

dwolfson20 wrote: post #2

Everyone should really just read the entire Autobiography. http://www.amazon.com/The-Autobiography-Malcolm-Told-Haley/d... Also, they should spell "Malcolm" correctly. :)

Also worth reading is Manning Marable's excellent biography Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention.

http://www.amazon.com/Malcolm-X-A-Life-Reinvention/dp/014312...