“Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X • Hacker News Board

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#91

Post by moo » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:11 PM UTC

aurelian wrote: post #82

moo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I posted above quoting from Wikipedia: "One view holds that racism is best understood as 'prejudice plus power' because without the support of political or economic power, prejudice would not be able to manifest as a pervasive cultural, institutional or social phenomenon." To scientifically address issues affecting people as a group and not as individuals, anti-racist people would see the benefit of acknowledging…

If you call a person a racist, you're saying 1) that he has certain views about race, and you may also be saying 2) that he takes certain actions in line with those views. Saying someone can't be racist without power is saying "if criteria for definition 2 aren't met, then criteria for definition 1 are not met," which is silly.

Then you think racism can be fixed by just condemning publicly open displays of racial prejudice. So if a Michael Richards torpedoes his career by doing a public racist rant, I guess you would argue that is proof our society is not racist instead of saying that only public displays of racism is unseemly. Racism is institutionally perpetuated, that is where you fix things. Otherwise you limit condemnation of racism to public displays instead of finding the source of group behavior.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#92

Post by tach4n » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:14 PM UTC

poppysan wrote: post #78

tomjen3 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it still worth reading for somebody who despise the man? Both what he was (a robber) and what he became?

It seems to me, in many cases, hate for Malcolm X is usually centered around his view of militancy as a viable option and his connection to the Nation of Islam. America was established through violent militancy, so I don't understand the first point. Many great conflicts have proven that as a viable solution. The second point makes many people uncomfortable because of the NOI's vocal opinions of the white race as a w…

> While the "white devil" philosophy can be supported with case studies of deplorable acts against blacks

To be clear, the NOI teaches that "white" people are literal devils - they were created by a scientist named Yakub ~6,000 years ago for the express purpose of fighting the "original" (i.e. "black") people.

I can sympathize with mistrust, and even hostility, towards a culture which historically and presently supports systems which oppress those of ones own culture but I find such teachings undesirable and dangerous. I only bring it up because I don't think most people are aware that the NOI teaches such things (or that they have ties to Dianetics/Scientology, but I digress).

It should also be noted the NOI didn't invent this play. The Israelites used a story of a curse upon Canaan to justify their conquest of it, and later various "white" religions like some Protestant sects, Mormonism, some Baptist groups, etc used the same story or "the mark of cain" to justify their treatment of the people of African origin - another set of disturbing/dangerous teachings that I'm sure many people today are unaware of.

At any rate, I agree that someone subscribing to any of these religions, or advocating actions I don't approve of wouldn't preclude me from being able to admire certain aspects of their personality/life or learn from them.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#93

Post by moo » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:18 PM UTC

jmaygarden wrote: post #88

moo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I posted above quoting from Wikipedia: "One view holds that racism is best understood as 'prejudice plus power' because without the support of political or economic power, prejudice would not be able to manifest as a pervasive cultural, institutional or social phenomenon." To scientifically address issues affecting people as a group and not as individuals, anti-racist people would see the benefit of acknowledging…

The references for that Wikipedia statement are both from the last five years. One reference is an article titled "Only white people can be racist." That's hardly an unbiased definition of a much older term. Since 1933, the definition of racism according to Merriam-Webster has been "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority…

What?!!! How the hell were schools in the U.S. South desegregated in the early 60's but with force of troops.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#94

Post by ezy » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:33 PM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #87

stuart78 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are fairly quick to erase, forget or forgive the racism of white leaders, but seem to have a harder time doing so for those who oppose the majority's cultural status quo. I fear this has been used historically as a way to marginalize certain voices. Certainly X is a complicated, difficult and contradictory figure, but also one who, through the autobiography, is able to capture a particular time and experience amaz…

We are fairly quick to erase, forget or forgive the racism of white leaders, but seem to have a harder time doing so for those who oppose the majority's cultural status quo. I fear this has been used historically as a way to marginalize certain voices. Here is a very relevant and well-articulated dissection of the phenomenon you're describing: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/beware-...

Uh.. I would say that "well-articulated" is debatable, unless the whole article was meant as satire.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#95

Post by phaus » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:35 PM UTC

moo wrote: post #90

phaus wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently its a popular idea, but both of the papers Wikipedia cited as references for the existence of that idea found that racism does not require power. Furthermore, they both found that the idea is often used as an excuse for racist behavior by those who don't hold power.

To address things scientifically you need to talk about groups not individuals in isolation. Ghettos, police profiling, stop and frisk, exonerated death sentences based on DNA testing, dog-whistle politics, voter ID laws, and U.S. media can statistically be argued to show that the U.S. is racist against racial minorities. To speak scientifically you need to address group behavior and what perpetuates that group behav…

>If you want to address Black or Latino racism then show the group power which is oppressing whites.

This doesn't really address what I was talking about. I'm not saying that whites didn't oppress blacks(because they did) or that white people are now being oppressed by minorities(because they aren't). I was simply explaining that racism is not a synonym for racial oppression. Racism is a specific word with a specific meaning. There are racist members of every ethnicity because being racist has absolutely nothing to do with a person's or a group's ability to oppress a group of people.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#96

Post by _nullandnull_ » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:37 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #31

dwolfson20 wrote: post #2

Everyone should really just read the entire Autobiography. http://www.amazon.com/The-Autobiography-Malcolm-Told-Haley/d... Also, they should spell "Malcolm" correctly. :)

Is it still worth reading for somebody who despise the man? Both what he was (a robber) and what he became?

Yes, it is worth reading. You hinted at change or transformation. I personally think this subject is what makes the book such a classic. The books shows his transformation from a "mascot", "Homeboy", "Harelemnite", "Minister Malcolm X" to "El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz". Those are the titles of a couple of the chapters. The voice of each chapter is almost written from that view. It's fascinating because you can see the transformation of his life and views. It's probably one of my favorite books because it shows how a man can change.

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#97

Post by jmaygarden » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:41 PM UTC

moo wrote: post #93

jmaygarden wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The references for that Wikipedia statement are both from the last five years. One reference is an article titled "Only white people can be racist." That's hardly an unbiased definition of a much older term. Since 1933, the definition of racism according to Merriam-Webster has been "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority…

What?!!! How the hell were schools in the U.S. South desegregated in the early 60's but with force of troops.

Huh? What does that have to do with changing the meaning of words?

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#98

Post by _nullandnull_ » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:46 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #81

tesq wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you despise the man?

I'm not tomjen3 or even that up on Malcolm X but note from Wikipedia that when that when with the Nation of Islam he taught that "white people are 'devils' that blacks are superior to whites, and that the demise of the white race is imminent." and that he split with the Nation of Islam over saying the Kennedy assassination was 'chickens coming home to roost' while they sent condolences to the family. All seems a bit…

> even that up on Malcolm X

Then you shouldn't comment on a subject that you know nothing about. Read his book, listen to his speeches, watch the movie, study the civil rights movements and then comment on what you feel is "iffy".

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#99

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:51 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #84

moo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is text from Wikipedia: "One view holds that racism is best understood as 'prejudice plus power' because without the support of political or economic power, prejudice would not be able to manifest as a pervasive cultural, institutional or social phenomenon." So I'm not making things up. To address issues affecting people as a group and not as individuals, anti-racist people would see the benefit of acknowledging…

Apparently its a popular idea, but both of the papers Wikipedia cited as references for the existence of that idea found that racism does not require power. Furthermore, they both found that the idea is often used as an excuse for racist behavior by those who don't hold power.

[deleted]

Re: “Learning to Read” excerpt from The Autobiography of Malcolm X

#100

Post by poppysan » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 8:57 PM UTC

tach4n wrote: post #92

poppysan wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me, in many cases, hate for Malcolm X is usually centered around his view of militancy as a viable option and his connection to the Nation of Islam. America was established through violent militancy, so I don't understand the first point. Many great conflicts have proven that as a viable solution. The second point makes many people uncomfortable because of the NOI's vocal opinions of the white race as a w…

> While the "white devil" philosophy can be supported with case studies of deplorable acts against blacks To be clear, the NOI teaches that "white" people are literal devils - they were created by a scientist named Yakub ~6,000 years ago for the express purpose of fighting the "original" (i.e. "black") people. I can sympathize with mistrust, and even hostility, towards a culture which historically and presently suppo…

Thanks, for the clarification. I am aware of the aliens and recent Scientology association. I am not NOI, nor prescribe to their beliefs, but I can see why they were attractive during the "civil rights era".