Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#101

Post by apotheon » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:51 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #95

apotheon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were possible to ban all non-procreative sex acts and all forms of contraception, it definitely would affect how many children are born.

Of course if you banned contraception, the birth rate would rise. But that's not what we're talking about, is it? We're talking about "private acts between consenting adults." Birth control is another kettle of fish entirely. You're taking the employment/sex "between two consenting adults" line and then adding an extreme element, like, for example, everybody on earth is required to work 40 hours a week.

Even if you didn't ban contraception, I'm sure birth rates would rise -- because people who wanted to get off and couldn't get fellatio might still not use contraception all the time.

> We're talking about "private acts between consenting adults." Birth control is another kettle of fish entirely.

WTF?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#102

Post by doki_pen » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:52 PM UTC

gabrielroth wrote: post #36

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

A strange fact popped into my mind, after reading this story and remembering some comments on the "Turing deserves an apology" story. Many people will say that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom. As soon as the act those adults want to do becomes nonsexual (e.g. an unpaid internship, unlicensed medicine), that principle goes out the window. Very confusing…

Under the 13th Amendment, you don't have the right to sell yourself into slavery in the United States. That is, you can't sign a contract under which I pay your family $n and in return you work for me under conditions of slavery. Prohibitions on unpaid labor are an extension of this restriction on your freedom to enter into contract of your own free will.

Freedom doesn't really come into the equation. Of course you can do work for free, that is your right. If your neighbor asked you to mow his lawn for free, there is no law to stop you from doing that work for him.

Corporations aren't people though and have different rights. They don't enjoy the right to employ people free of charge.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#103

Post by timr » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:52 PM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #77

timr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place?" We don't. The government takes the logical position that all such internships are illegal, so regulators don't need to make that subjective judgment. In this light, the answer to your second question is "yes" -- the government is erring on the side of worker safety. It's a judgment call, and you can disag…

I find it disturbing that when "both sides of the debate have perfectly reasonable arguments" the knee-jerk response is "Let's regulate the fuck out of it!"

It's not a knee-jerk response. For future reference, a good indication of a knee-jerk response is a remark that reduces an opponent's arguments to seven-word soundbites involving profanity.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#104

Post by cwan » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:53 PM UTC

timmaah wrote: post #53

cwan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

re: "It is a fine line between experience and exploitation" - shouldn't the person getting the experience/being exploited be the arbiter of that rather than some random bureaucrat?

In a perfect world yes.. but in the real world that is the reason there are labor unions. If you complete a 6 month internship we will give you a job. And keep stringing the person along.. etc.. I think a good compromise would limit an internship to 3 months, afterwards you have to pay. And the employee has to be in a college or degree program or 2 years out of one. And somehow limit it so Burger King can't make you…

In the real world, labor unions have largely outlived their usefulness which is why firms in industries where they dominate find themselves either dying or bankrupt and why there has been a steady decline in membership.

I'll bite though, how is it (in an imperfect or perfect world) that these unpaid interns are unable to be the arbiters of whether or not an unpaid internship "has value" to them?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#105

Post by rapind » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:59 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #9

rapind wrote: post #7

It may not be a popular opinion but I agree with the US gov on this one. Everyone wants something for free. However, I think the big problem is how the compensation is valued. If the experience gained by the intern is more valuable than minimum wage, then yes, the law seems broken. However for every job that would actually provide meaningful experience and benefit the intern there are probably many other internships…

You haven't explained why you agree with the US government on this one (though it's not just the US government). Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place? Are you saying that instead of letting people make their own choices at an individual level as to whether or not the experience is of value, it's better for government to just ban the choice alto…

I thought I did explain my opinion, but yes you've stated it much more succinctly than I have.

I believe the law protects people (specifically young people starting their careers) from exploitive practices. It also hurts them by penalizing non-exploitive and beneficial practices. I personally beleive the protection outweighs the potential benefits in this law, and thus agree with this law.

Is this a little big brother'ish? Perhaps, but nonetheless I would vote in favour of it.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#106

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 5:00 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #83

ahoyhere wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After years of freelancing, without prior "work experience" and without even a high school diploma, my first job paid me $64,000. Think about it - I ran my own business, I was responsible for everything from client acquisition, billing, account management, not to mention actual production and marketing. And I didn't starve or get evicted, so it clearly worked. That's great experience. An unpaid internship doesn't giv…

This might be the time to mention the true story of Christopher Gardner, as shown in "The Pursuit of Happyness" who worked for six months without pay to find his dream. One story does not an argument make, but it's just an observation.

[deleted]

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#107

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 5:03 PM UTC

There is a really simple way around this, used only by everybody online this century: set up a fan organization and allow your so-called "interns" to do volunteer work. Make it a collaborative community, and give some fricking minimal thought to quality control by means of a voting system, and your problem is solved.

It's 2009. Why is the owner of the Mavericks not aware of this sort of thing? Answer: he wants full ownership control of the resulting content. But he doesn't want to pay for it - that would make him less of a billionaire. So actual volunteer work is out. He wants the benefits of ownership without the disadvantage of paying people.

The government is right, here. Unpaid work for somebody who fully owns the results and benefits from it directly is a scam. It's spec work for God's sake, and I certainly see plenty of people coming out of the woodwork decrying that every time it comes up. Yet here, everybody's piling on the government for trying to prevent a billionaire from taking advantage of a bunch of out-of-work creative staff.

(If people want "valuable experience", there's no shortage of volunteer work that won't involve a billionaire laughing all the way to the bank.)

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#108

Post by anonjon » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 5:03 PM UTC

Don't Want to Pay to Have Someone do a Shitload of Work for You? Screw You!

Not paying someone to do business related work devalues that 'sort of work', across the board. If I can get interns to some amount of work for free, then I am not employing and (more importantly) paying someone to do that same work. This may be good for the company, but it is bad for people who are unemployed and the other employees of the company. This is because the practice drags down the average price that any company can expect to pay for one unit of that 'sort of work'.

This may be great for shareholders, the CEO's bank balance, but it is not good for anyone else.

(Economically it is better to have an intern making minimum wage, and spending it than to have the money aggregating in some billionaire's bank somewhere).

To act like the intern has any choice in the matter is wrong; as the majority of companies now precondition employment for even the 'starting' positions with some amount of experience. It used to be that employers would hire kids right out of college and actually take the time to mentor them in the business world. Then it was internships during college, and now it is unpaid internships, and soon I'm sure we will be paying for the opportunity to work!

It strikes me as incredibly arrogant that someone would think that the mere experience of working for him is equivalent to any sort of compensation. (What am I really gaining out of making photocopies for you, Mr. Cuban?) When profitable work gets done, someone should get paid, end of story. To me that seems to be morally and ethically correct, even if it drives my bottom line down by a few dollars an hour.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#109

Post by rapind » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 5:03 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #87

timr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place?" We don't. The government takes the logical position that all such internships are illegal, so regulators don't need to make that subjective judgment. In this light, the answer to your second question is "yes" -- the government is erring on the side of worker safety. It's a judgment call, and you can disag…

"worker safety" - Huh? Where is the safety of the worker here being jeopardized? It's not perfectly reasonable to the person being denied the choice. Clearly for the employer, the task(s) aren't of sufficient value to pay for the work otherwise, if they couldn't get unpaid workers, they would just pay for it. Instead, banning the practice makes society tangibly worse off as the work on the margins isn't being perform…

In some situations sure, I can agree with that. But to say it makes society tangibly worse I strongly disagree with because it assumes that all or at least most unpaid interships will benefit the internee. I don't think that's the case.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#110

Post by te_platt » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 5:05 PM UTC

psranga wrote: post #11

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

A strange fact popped into my mind, after reading this story and remembering some comments on the "Turing deserves an apology" story. Many people will say that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom. As soon as the act those adults want to do becomes nonsexual (e.g. an unpaid internship, unlicensed medicine), that principle goes out the window. Very confusing…

Hmm, one is an equal partnership, the other isn't. The unpaid internship law serves to give some protections to the little guy. Btw, I really don't understand why a billionaire (?) can't afford to pay hourly minimum wages to a bunch of kids.

Who are you to decide the partnership isn't equal? And just how does the internship law protect the little guy? By making sure she can't get valuable experience? Also, just because you don't understand why someone would offer an unpaid internship instead of a minimum wage job doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Should your ignorance be the basis of public policy? I don't mean to come across as rude but come on, I'm a grown adult and don't need or want your "protection".