U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#101

Post by bodyfour » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 8:21 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As far as I can tell, programming talent is distributed evenly all over the world. So why does the US have such a large software industry? Because a lot of the top talent worldwide wants to come here and work. Places like Silicon Valley have a far-outsized share of the top 5% of talent.

That's the single reason our industry can command high wages -- you can certainly hire overseas developers cheaper but it's hard to find the same kind of talent concentrations our tech centers have. Even though you need to pay way more to hire in the US (and remember, software is an industry where people are your big cost) companies still find it worthwhile to build things here.

For those of us who are US citizens, this is a bonanza. There is a huge, highly-compensated industry in our back yard. And we're already allowed to work anywhere we want in it, no years of paperwork needed. We're not even forced to move oceans away from our families or work in a second language.

The H1B/L1's etc that you would send home? Guess what -- they will be competing against you anyway, just sitting in a different country. There won't be any H1B rules requiring pay equity with US citizens, and many of those countries have lower costs overall. They will be providing more downward pressure on US wages, not less. Plus they won't even be paying US taxes any more.

The idea that by driving the world's top talent out of the country will mean that US programmers will be living like kings is a silly myth. All it would demonstrate is how mobile those jobs are. If you wanted to keep working in your field, maybe you'd have to become the emigrant.

But I know that ultimately I'm just wasting keystrokes here. The anti-H1B bias in our industry just seems to grow and grow. People think that Silicon Valley and similar places are some naturally occurring money geyser -- if only we just put a "natives-only" sign on it we'd keep it all for ourselves. (And it goes without saying that by "natives" they're perversely talking about people whose great-grandparents immigrated from Europe) I think the endgame is that the US tech industry will eventually die, and programming wages will mostly equalize with the third world. The tighter you grab it, the faster it runs through your fingers.

Personally if I ran immigration policy it would be completely the opposite -- if you're a high-achieving STEM graduate with a US company dying to hire you I would hand you a passport before you had the chance to change your mind. It's so much better for the US when smart people are benefiting our economy, not competing against it.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#102

Post by crdoconnor » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #89

bsder wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. Exactly, so let them. Employer is responsible and liable for the H1-B security check, and, if it passes, in one year the H1-B converts to a green card. Even better, the H1-B cap gets cleaned out so new people can come in every year. Good solution, no? So, why don't we hear this? Because H1-B's a…

> So, why don't we hear this? Because H1-B's aren't about filling jobs, they're about downward pressure on wages. Instead of posing a question, answering it yourself, and then attacking the answer I am proposing to do something which I think will lead to better results for almost everyone involved. When some corporation proposes increasing the H-1B quota, tell them that you agree with them but ask them to include the…

>When some corporation proposes increasing the H-1B quota, tell them that you agree with them but ask them to include the stipulations your outlined above.

This is a political non starter. They'll ignore you.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#103

Post by htormey » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 8:34 PM UTC

As someone working in the US on a H1B I am against raising the cap. Instead I think this visa should be replaced with one that can not be used by consulting companies and offers a short clear path to a green card.

The main problem is that the majority of people on this visa are being used as tools to drive down US wages. These are the people working for consulting shops in the middle of no where making below market wages while being forced to do mind numbing work.

It is very hard for someone in a situation like this to switch jobs. Their is also no incentive for their employers to sponsor them for a green card until they absolutely have to. It's not uncommon to find people spending close to a decade being one step away from being deported.

I want immigration reform not the perpetuation of a half baked visa that favors big companies and allows immigrants to be easily exploited. In summary I think talented people should be encouraged to work in the US but on an equal footing to everyone else. Raising the H1B cap is not immigration reform.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#104

Post by cpher » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 8:37 PM UTC

ntakasaki wrote: post #7

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #4

I've been thinking about this subject for a few years now. Like many HN'ers, I work deep inside the tech industry. I'm also fortunate enough to have watched the operations of dozens of different companies. I think the real problem here is that the tech industry does not know how to manage their workers. I'm not talking about managing projects, or how to coach or train. I mean the whole thing. The technology sector of…

>I think the real problem here is that the tech industry does not know how to manage their workers It's not just the tech industry, almost all companies struggle to measure productivity, especially as a comparative measure. People like salesmen do have defined metrics like sales, but it's harder to do that for people in HR and Accounting, for example.

That's usually because sales, engineering, etc are "profit" centers, while HR/Accounting/Reception are "cost" centers. One group produces while the other consumes. So, it's really comparing apples to oranges.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#105

Post by crdoconnor » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 8:42 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #66

bicknergseng wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having the most marketable degree in the world. Wait. Is that a serious sentence?

Surveys consistently find academic economists to average left-wing. I had thought economics degrees were also the highest-paying (at 75k if I remember correctly) but apparently this has been outstripped by a few engineering disciplines, particularly petroleum, in the last few years. I edited my post. However, having an economics degree is still a good way to make money and academia not a good way to make money. The p…

>The point is people stereotype research economists as corporate shills or something, when they tend to be left-wing

They tend to poll Democrat more than Republican, but that certainly doesn't mean that they're left wing or anti-corporate. Quite the opposite in fact.

There is a near unanimity on the benefits of CAFTA, NAFTA and immigration, for instance. Also against government ownership of enterprise.

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/klein/PdfPapers/KS_PublCh06.pdf

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#106

Post by Retric » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 8:48 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #13

jedberg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is a Republican Senator from Alabama. He doesn't need to look at facts. Let's be fair here. That should read: He is a Senator. He doesn't need to look at facts.

Some seniors face tough elections, others don't. Republican seniors in Alabama only face compition in the primary and little real completion at that.

Note, the incumbent senator for the 2014 election faces literally zero opposition.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election...

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#107

Post by bodyfour » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 9:14 PM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #40

curiousDog wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with the downward pressure point. Personally, i think its a good thing. American companies (including start-ups) now have a larger pool of talent to hire from without paying Wall street salaries. However, I disagree that H1Bs are somehow cheaper. I was paid the same wage as my American counter-parts when I was at AMZN.

I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been…

The non-H1B salaries aren't public, but they do get audited. Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay. These audits aren't rare either -- by the time you're large enough to have decent number of H1Bs they're practically routine. Large companies have a team of people just focusing on H1B compliance.

As you discovered, there is a hidden wage pressure anyway. Over your career, it's your mobility that helps drive your wages up: either because you leave for greener fields, or just because you can. While you're on a H1B your mobility is so limited which can put your career in low gear until you get your GC. If your on lame project or a cheap company you just have to put up with it.

The dumb thing is that the solution is absurdly simple: just allow H1Bs to transfer sponsorship with zero penalty. If that means that they work for 5 different firms before they get the GC, so be it. Labor market dynamism is a good thing, embrace it. You also could scrap the whole auditing process; if a company starts underpaying their H1B's the problem would sort itself out very quickly as they start getting poached by the competitor down the road.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#108

Post by pandaman » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 10:06 PM UTC

bodyfour wrote: post #107

pandaman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been…

The non-H1B salaries aren't public, but they do get audited. Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay. These audits aren't rare either -- by the time you're large enough to have decent number of H1Bs they're practically routine. Large companies have a team of people just focusing on H1B compliance. As you discovered, there is a hidden wage pressure anyway. Ov…

>Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay

Any source for this? I have never heard of such requirements (as well, as often cited need to prove that no citizens available for each H1B position). All you need is to pay above the prevailing wage. Which is ridiculously low anyways.

>The dumb thing is that the solution is absurdly simple: just allow H1Bs to transfer sponsorship with zero penalty.

What is preventing you from transferring H1B now? I had no penalties transferring my H1B twice. The mobility problem with H1B is not the transfer per se. It's the fact that to do this the company need to have immigration lawyers and have the paperwork in order (e.g. one company that wanted to hire me did not have their tax returns). So the number of the companies you cold transfer is limited. Another issue is that H1B has maximum term of 6 years, which can only be extended if there is an active AOS process (green card). Somebody with 4 years on H1B is not a very attractive hire for a company that wants more commitment from their workers.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#109

Post by pandaman » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 10:11 PM UTC

curiousDog wrote: post #93

pandaman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been…

Where did you work? I can't speak for the body shopping places. In my case, I was hired straight out of college and I compared offers with a few American friends. Also, I had a few close American Frieds I trust.

I worked for big American public companies, definitely not the body shops. Though, I was already senior when I've got my H1B. I imagine the only leverage the fresh grads have is choosing another company that pays more. So all the grads that joined together with you are getting the same entry-level pay by the way they have been selected (people getting more went elsewhere).

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#110

Post by frostmatthew » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 10:40 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #75

sdenton4 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's far less emphasis on in-house training for specific skills than there once was. My mother, for anecdata, came out of a computer science program in the mid eighties with her education financed by her employer. Companies today don't see employees as long-term investments, and that's one of the prime reasons for the lack of people with the specific skills that those companies need. Highly specific skill sets are…

>My mother, for anecdata, came out of a computer science program in the mid eighties with her education financed by her employer. I don't believe thats a 100% apt comparison. In the 80s, tuition at MIT, a private school, was less than 10k/yr (according to wikipedia). Considering to do the same now would cost nearly 5-6x as much, its no surprise that corporations haven't continued those programs.

> Considering to do the same now would cost nearly 5-6x as much, its no surprise that corporations haven't continued those programs.

Are you suggesting corporate profits have remained flat for the last 30 years? http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP/