Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

time.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 139 posts

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#101

Post by exelius »

bad_user wrote: post #90
exelius wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with ADHD tend to be very fast thinkers -- indeed this is part of the "problem" because while we're having a conversation with someone, we've thought through every consequence of what you just said before you finish your sentence. Because of this, we tend to get to "outside the box" type solutions much more quickly than others because we can effectively execute parallel tasks in our minds and come up with an a…

Are you sure that "hyperfocus" is a symptom of ADHD? I'm a developer, depending on how well rested I am I can go into that zone for 12 hours, sure, but I've always been like that since I was a child and if I want I can focus on subjects that don't bring me pleasure at all, it's all a matter of determination (edit: for me). Observing children at my wife's kindergarten that allegedly have ADHD, it's quite the opposite…

Well, trying to diagnose ADHD in a 5 year old is witchcraft at best -- kids at that age just naturally have no attention span. It's not ADHD when you're 5, it's being a kid. I was diagnosed young, and let me tell you: the meds are no fun for the kid. You're amped up on pills all day then when you come home you're a zombie. It likely results in a lot of depression issues for kids who don't really understand what's going on.

When unmedicated, an adult with ADHD literally cannot focus on a subject that is uninteresting. You try, then OOH SHINY. You can try cutting out distractions, great! You get 5 minutes of work done then you have to pee. Then you notice a magazine on the table. Then 3 hours of this later, you remember that you originally had a task you were trying to complete.

It goes beyond simple procrastination: short term memory is a real issue in general, especially about doing things. It doesn't matter how hard you need to focus, you'll constantly be distracted, and when you get distracted, you forget what you were originally supposed to be doing. Likewise, you may then hyperfocus on something that is interesting to you and end up playing around with an Arduino for 4 hours without realizing it. You know how you have a nagging feeling you were supposed to do something? That's pretty much life for an adult with ADHD. A constant feeling that you're forgetting to do something. But you can't remember what it is.

It's hard to explain the difference between ADHD "hyperfocus" and just being "in the zone"; but I'd have to say it's the in-the-moment perception of how time passes. Most people when they're "in the zone" make a conscious decision to stay there: with ADHD it's almost an accidental thing where you enter a trance and only leave it when your task is done or when someone smacks you across the face.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#102

Post by trillium »

watwut wrote: post #58
trillium wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head, roughly 7% of kids in the US have ADHD and roughly 4-5% of adults have ADHD. 20% of boys of a certain age have currently been diagnosed with ADHD.

If the definition of ADHD includes 20% of all boys, then I'm inclined to believe the definition takes in too many kids. If 1 in 5 kids has it, then it is normal behavior in that age range.

I don't in anyway shape or form think 20% of boys should be diagnosed with ADHD. I think something is seriously wrong with our society if this is happening.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#103

Post by JohnBooty »

bad_user wrote: post #90
exelius wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with ADHD tend to be very fast thinkers -- indeed this is part of the "problem" because while we're having a conversation with someone, we've thought through every consequence of what you just said before you finish your sentence. Because of this, we tend to get to "outside the box" type solutions much more quickly than others because we can effectively execute parallel tasks in our minds and come up with an a…

Are you sure that "hyperfocus" is a symptom of ADHD? I'm a developer, depending on how well rested I am I can go into that zone for 12 hours, sure, but I've always been like that since I was a child and if I want I can focus on subjects that don't bring me pleasure at all, it's all a matter of determination (edit: for me). Observing children at my wife's kindergarten that allegedly have ADHD, it's quite the opposite…

A typical ADHD complaint is that the "hyperfocus" happens but the problem is that you can't choose what you want to focus on.

  Or maybe these are in fact 2 different disorders?
Sure. Even with our woefully incomplete understanding of things, there have been recognized subtypes of ADHD for quite some time, as well as recognition that there are a great many things (situational depression, clinical depression, etc) that can affect one's focus.

And yes, diagnosing little kids with ADHD and giving them medication sounds horrifying to me.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#104

Post by darkarmani »

bad_user wrote: post #90
exelius wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with ADHD tend to be very fast thinkers -- indeed this is part of the "problem" because while we're having a conversation with someone, we've thought through every consequence of what you just said before you finish your sentence. Because of this, we tend to get to "outside the box" type solutions much more quickly than others because we can effectively execute parallel tasks in our minds and come up with an a…

Are you sure that "hyperfocus" is a symptom of ADHD? I'm a developer, depending on how well rested I am I can go into that zone for 12 hours, sure, but I've always been like that since I was a child and if I want I can focus on subjects that don't bring me pleasure at all, it's all a matter of determination (edit: for me). Observing children at my wife's kindergarten that allegedly have ADHD, it's quite the opposite…

> Are you sure that "hyperfocus" is a symptom of ADHD?

Yes. The name is a misnomer. It's a kind of executive function disorder. The ability to prioritize and focus at will on what is needed. Hyperfocus means that other things that might need to be a priority are being dropped. Hyperfocus is only good when it is on the right things.

> it's all a matter of determination.

That's good for you, but what about the people that can't no matter what level of determination? Determination isn't a solution to erectile disfunction so why is it a solution to adhd?

> on the other hand it's often misdiagnosed and those drugs may in fact do more harm than good in many cases.

Isn't that true in almost all treatments? In how many cases have medication caused more harm than good?

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#105

Post by exelius »

jasonlotito wrote: post #92
exelius wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a "gift" or an "advantage", but it's not necessarily a disadvantage either IF the individual learns the proper coping strategies and can structure their work/life in a way that can make the ADHD less of a liability. It takes hard work.

Learning to overcome disadvantages doesn't cease to make them disadvantages.

Ok, well how about this: I don't ever remember what happens in meetings. Because of this, I learned to take really good notes. As a result of my coping strategy, I always have a distinct advantage over people who don't have ADHD. I can look at my notes from 6 months ago and tell you what we talked about in a meeting.

I don't really think of it as a "disadvantage" because it's really just about knowing your personal limitations. One of mine is that I can't remember shit. Some people struggle with complex math problems (which I would say is a bigger weakness than memory issues which are easily solved with an iPhone and a notebook.) It doesn't have to be a weakness if you manage it.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#106

Post by JohnBooty »

zeidrich wrote: post #91
exelius wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with ADHD tend to be very fast thinkers -- indeed this is part of the "problem" because while we're having a conversation with someone, we've thought through every consequence of what you just said before you finish your sentence. Because of this, we tend to get to "outside the box" type solutions much more quickly than others because we can effectively execute parallel tasks in our minds and come up with an a…

Disorder is maybe a harsh word, but my issue is that it runs counter to how I want to act. I want to do x, but I don't do it. It's really hard to explain to someone who doesn't feel the same way. It's not just a procrastination, it's a complete inability to adhere to a rational set of priorities. For most people task avoidance is due to stress or fear. For me it was simply that it disappeared from my head while I did…

  Then there's the periods of seeing that mental priority list,  
  but being unable to commit to any single task to the extent that 
  nothing gets done. If there's giant pressure or stress behind 
  something, it could force me to act, but otherwise nothing.

  "Hyperfocus" is kind of true in that when you unhinge from that 
  mental priority list you stop feeling the distractions, but the 
  problem is you don't exactly get to choose what you want to 
  focus on.
Get out of my brain! Yeah. This! Eerily accurate description of how I feel a lot of the time.

  It [ADHD] doesn't make you an incredibly quick thinker, you 
  don't necessarily "think through every consequence of what you 
  just said before you finish your sentence" what is more 
  realistic is we think through some things unrelated to what was 
  just said, sometimes this might lead to an alternate line of 
  reasoning, a "thinking outside the box".
Yeah, I agree with this. I think that people with high intelligence and ADHD often conflate the effects of one with the effects of the other.

Being smart makes you think ahead; having ADHD makes you think sideways. Together, they can be a real doozy, huh?

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#107

Post by ajcarpy2005 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #87
ajcarpy2005 wrote: post #71

In my research, ADHD seems to be basically inflammation[1] of the brain. Think: bacteria, free radicals, active immune response, underactive detox and circulation, etc. Some approaches which are most useful seem to be: Magnesium, Green Tea &/OR L-Theanine, GABA, SAMe, Milk Thistle, Fish Oil, Cholesterol, Vitamin D (Sunlight), etc. I would say there is no silver bullet. But I would say unambiguously that vitamins and…

I don't doubt that inflammation is one of the myriad things that can cause attention issues. One thing to realize re: supplements is that, by biological design, it's really hard to get chemicals into your brain simply by digesting them. There are a lot of steps between eating something and it winding up in your brain. I mean, the very first thing that happens to ingested items is a bath in the insane mixture of acid…

The mechanisms of action that I'm referring to don't depend upon physically transporting molecules into the brain. Also, as it turns out, even inflammation in your gut or elsewhere changes the signals that the nerves send to the brain. And levels of neurotransmitters in the brain are absolutely impacted by what's going on in the rest of the body...regardless of the BBB.

What specific point are you trying to make about the Blood-Brain Barrier? And stomach acid? Sorry but neither of those things somehow render the foods and chemicals we ingest meaningless! Your HCL won't somehow break down Magnesium! Even Vitamins will mostly make it through intact.

I'm not a scientist but I don't get my information from Men's Health magazine either...I research reputable scientific studies and make reasonable connections.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#108

Post by JohnBooty »

zeidrich wrote: post #81
JohnBooty wrote: post #15

This article is so potentially harmful, even if it's more nuanced than the hyperbolic "ADHD Doesn't Exist" title would suggest. The reality is that -- whatever the underlying cause -- a lot of people struggle with attention span issues, and that these issues cause a lot of pain and unfulfilled potential. Even if ADHD medications are overprescribed Band-Aids, people benefit from them. We should try and find better dia…

If ADD/ADHD is a matter of willpower, then maybe that is true, but willpower is a neurological resource. Exercising willpower diminishes that resource, you can see that in studied conditions like decision fatigue. If some people have too little of this resource to function in a normal capacity, why then should people argue against a drug that helps buoy this resource. If doctors found a better way to treat the condit…

Amen. It's funny how as a society we've come to accept certain mental issues as things rooted in brain chemistry and others are still "willpower" issues; issues of personal quality.

I think that at this point, nearly everybody in the civilized world accepts dyslexia as a neurological thing and not a issue of "willpower" or low intelligence. It wasn't always that way, though - that's a pretty recent development.

I hope we can see (and contribute to) ADHD getting there in our lifetimes.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#109

Post by MBCook »

watwut wrote: post #93
MBCook wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how many people here are skipping the qualifier in the title, taking it as "ADHD does not exist".

That is the title of both the original time.com article and the book written by its author. The qualifier "as currently defined" is only on HN.

Oh, you're right.

That's odd considering how rigorously titles on HN are changed to match the original.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#110

Post by JohnBooty »

ajcarpy2005 wrote: post #107
JohnBooty wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that inflammation is one of the myriad things that can cause attention issues. One thing to realize re: supplements is that, by biological design, it's really hard to get chemicals into your brain simply by digesting them. There are a lot of steps between eating something and it winding up in your brain. I mean, the very first thing that happens to ingested items is a bath in the insane mixture of acid…

The mechanisms of action that I'm referring to don't depend upon physically transporting molecules into the brain. Also, as it turns out, even inflammation in your gut or elsewhere changes the signals that the nerves send to the brain. And levels of neurotransmitters in the brain are absolutely impacted by what's going on in the rest of the body...regardless of the BBB. What specific point are you trying to make abou…

  Sorry but neither of those things somehow render the   
  foods and chemicals we ingest meaningless!
Nobody's saying that. The things we ingest have a profound influence on us.

However, the connection between our brains and the things we inject is extremely circuitous. "Reasonable connections" often don't apply, and things we do might often have the opposite effect of the one we intend.

All that said, I think personal experimentation with supplements (within safe limits) is a very good thing. I have tried a bunch!

Post reply on HN