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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#101

Post by jmadsen »

jared314 wrote: post #4

> Most people have not lived in a time of plagues or remember their effects. Most people do not read history or look at the morbidity and mortality of vaccine-preventable illnesses in the third world. This is another great example of why people need to be taught actual history, not the version censored "for their young minds". The people who change curricula and edit textbooks to remove the unpleasant memories, or fo…

The sad thing is, one of the worst pandemics in human history is fairly recent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

There are (a few) people alive today who remember it.

It killed between 1.5 and 3 times as many people as the earlier WWI - but isn't as sexy as war, so hardly anyone studies it (relatively speaking)

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#102

Post by joshuahedlund »

nl wrote: post #98
joshuahedlund wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would God protect from the measles but not the autism? (And I say this as a Christian who believes in healing) Yet while 'vaccine denialism' is often associated with the Religious Right, it's certainly not a prerequisite, because you can certainly find the same sentiments among the all-natural anti-GMO fringe Left, and before we had stories about Texas mega churches we had stories about affluent Californians[1] […

Why would God protect from the measles but not the autism? That's a wonderful line.

Well, when your mind is made up you can explain anything - perhaps the autism is a punishment for not trusting in the original protection, etc, etc

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#103

Post by ghshephard »

lovemenot wrote: post #96
contingencies wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccines do the precise opposite of what you just wrote... Yes, but only for one specific disease.

I believe your parent was arguing that vaccines facilitate travel and that globalisation is anathema to monoculture. So vaccines indirectly attack the monoculture which you both think is a risk to our civilisation.

I wasn't - but I really like the point you are making. It had never occurred to me that the globalization of of travel is the antitheses of monoculture disease pools - But it's true - the Flu in China last year, quickly becomes a worldwide phenomenon six-nine months later.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#104

Post by nl »

raphinou wrote: post #72
dalke wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have made an implication, without basis, that the immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro." This is not the case. Read any of the CDC, NIH, or WHO history of vaccinations and you'll see the reasons for the decisions. You'll see the numbers of how much it costs to vaccinate, how much it costs to treat, the likelihood of disease, the likel…

> You have made an implication, without basis, that the > immunization policies in the US are "unconditionally pro", > or at least that the people here are "unconditionally pro." You have interpreted this. Read my comment without considering me as anti-vaccines and maybe you'll understand you over-reacted.... My reflection was about pushing administration of vaccines against for example stomach ulcers (vaccine in dev…

Would you be for mandating, in high-income countries, the administration of a vaccine against rotaviruses knowing their efficiency is only 45%? Rotavirus is evaluated at 1% of children deaths in these countries [1] (from CDC, a source you mention yourself). Will you also push for a vaccine for the 99 other percent?

Where to start with this?

45% is a pretty low effectiveness rate. I'd prefer to see it higher, but nevertheless 45% success should improve herd immunity, right?

Rotavirus is evaluated at 1% of children deaths in these countries

If that is correct, then that is a HUGE death rate. Anything to reduce that seems sensible.

Will you also push for a vaccine for the 99 other percent?

Well.. can you predict in advance which are the 1% who are going to die? If you can then vaccinate them! If not then it would seem sensible to vaccinate everyone to develop her immunity. That will (a) directly decrease the death rate by making some who would have died immune, and (b) indirectly decrease the death rate by making it less likely to be transmitted.

Edit: Reading a bit, I believe your numbers are incorrect - or at least the way you have phrased it. 1% may be the rate in developing countries, but it isn't in developed countries.

The Wikipedia article on Rotavirus[1] makes the vaccine seem pretty compelling: In Mexico, which in 2006 was among the first countries in the world to introduce rotavirus vaccine, diarrhoeal disease death rates dropped during the 2009 rotavirus season by more than 65 percent among children age two and under.....In the United States, rotavirus vaccination since 2006 has led to drops in rotavirus-related hospitalizations by as much as 86 percent. The vaccines may also have prevented illness in non-vaccinated children by limiting the number of circulating infections.

So yes, in my opinion - based on 10 minutes of research only - it should be mandatory.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotavirus#Prevention

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#105

Post by minikites »

up_and_up wrote: post #97
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids. My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and not…

Why not vaccinate for chickenpox? Helps reduce chance of scarring and reduces the chance for shingles. When I was a kid I gave chicken pox to my mom who got super sick. It would have been nice to have a vaccine back then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine

I'm surprised at the number of comments on a tech site showing fear of technology.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#106

Post by lovemenot »

ghshephard wrote: post #103
lovemenot wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe your parent was arguing that vaccines facilitate travel and that globalisation is anathema to monoculture. So vaccines indirectly attack the monoculture which you both think is a risk to our civilisation.

I wasn't - but I really like the point you are making. It had never occurred to me that the globalization of of travel is the antitheses of monoculture disease pools - But it's true - the Flu in China last year, quickly becomes a worldwide phenomenon six-nine months later.

That wasn't really my point so much as an attempt to clarify. In all likelihood globalisation at best buys time against the monoculture issue. If and when that hits, with globalisation, it will be commensurately larger than it would have been otherwise.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#107

Post by lake99 »

up_and_up wrote: post #97
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids. My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and not…

If your kids happen get chickenpox naturally in their childhood, they'll likely be safe. However, if they get when they grow up, it could easily be fatal.

I don't know why there is an increase of autism in your area, or even if there really is an increase. But vaccines are a red herring.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#108

Post by ceejayoz »

tsotha wrote: post #41
tjogin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that bird/pig flu wouldn't have had more severe impact if it wasn't for the vaccinations?

Last year the flu vaccine was only about 35% effective in my area and the world didn't end. In a normal year you're in no danger from the flu unless your pulmonary or immune systems are compromised. Of course that's not true every year.

> In a normal year you're in no danger from the flu unless your pulmonary or immune systems are compromised.

As the parent of twins born three months early, that sort of attitude is distressing. Vaccination protects more than just the person vaccinated.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#109

Post by raphinou »

jlgreco wrote: post #93
raphinou wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lack of moderated opinions is hurting a lot these days. Read my answer to dalke, because I would like ask you the same question: Would you be for mandating vaccines against rota-viruses in high-income countries?

I don't have the expertise to make that call, and neither I suspect do you. I am comfortable with the CDC making that call. Moderated positions should not be your priority. Rather factually correct and defensible positions should be.

Looking at the facts lead me to a moderate position.

I let you feel confortable following the cdc, i prefer to keep a critical mind, though i agree it is hard for non experts like us to get good and objective information.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#110

Post by maxerickson »

sliverstorm wrote: post #35
rhizome wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polio existed in the US within the memories of many people still alive.

Sure, but polio was virtually eliminated in America by 1980, and how old were today's non-vaccinating parents in 1980? Or 1953, for that matter- the year of the last polio outbreak?

The age gaps are large, but I remember my grandmother being debilitated by polio. She wore leg braces most of her life and had trouble moving around the few years I knew her (she passed in the 1980s).

There is no need to have witnessed polio directly to have a sense of the awful potential it carries. The whole idea of people living attached to ventilators should be enough for any quasi rational individual.

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