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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#101

Post by tibbon »

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

Interestingly enough though, that 'right to bear arms' actually gives zero protection from the government as theorized- even if the gov't is acting in a corrupt manner.

If this guy was in Texas holed up with a small armory, the FBI would still bust in there and arrest him. If he tried to use that small armory (and wasn't killed) it wouldn't have just been him 'exercising his right' of course.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#102

Post by rayiner »

anon1385 wrote: post #69
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been, and the 1st is much stronger.[1] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? If not that's the 4th amendment working as intended. What we have here is a system: 1) Clearly designed to pass a 4th amendment analysis; 2) Enabled to to pass such scrutiny be the unprecedented access Americans give corporations to the details of their private lives. For what its wo…

>The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been […] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_v._King Justice Ginsburg , dissenting. The Court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment ’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then…

You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws. Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No. That's why the 4th uses the wiggle word "unreasonable."

I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime. I do too, but lots of people do. I grew up in "just say no" suburbia. My mom and lots like her (see the reddit meme: scumbag suburban mom) thinks drugs are the worst thing ever.

In any case, Kentucky is an affirmation of the very simple principle that a warrant is not required. For better or worse, the framers did not give us a 4th amendment that admitted no compromises. They gave us one that asked us to analyze whether a search was "reasonable", asking us to reach compromises.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#103

Post by cema »

josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

  we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia
  when it comes to freedoms
I think I understand where it is coming from. Perception is there, and perception is important. There is however a big difference between China and Russia on one hand and USA on the other: the openness of the US society is, among other things, manifested in noticing and magnifying dirty spots.

Other countries with Western European cultural traditions or influences (this includes Australia and NZ but also Japan and Israel, for example) are on the same "other hand". One reason the focus is often on the USA is how it positions itself in the ideological space, as a pinnacle of liberty and freedoms and so on. Personally, while I avoid ideologies and ideologues as much as I can, I think there is a positive side to it, which is precisely the level of scrutiny typical for the US.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#105

Post by VLM »

raverbashing wrote: post #11
VLM wrote: post #3

The real news is a rare violation of Betteridge's Law Of Headlines was spotted in today's Washington Post, a sight that shocked pundits worldwide.

Yes, I agree. But to be fair sometimes the question is constructed so the answer is "yes" and not no (while still being obvious). Can't remember an example now.

Could that be a suggestive question?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestive_question

(We're solidly in the realm of (bad) meta-puns now...)

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#106

Post by mdesq »

randomsearch wrote: post #91
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Interesting. But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military?

I think the folks in the Middle East have pretty much demonstrated how this works.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#107

Post by alan_cx »

xradionut wrote: post #70
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

Most of the US populous has jobs, beer and entertainment. Plus they might with the lottery some day and join the 1%.

Distracted by the various opiates of the masses.

And that's the problem, while people have their comforts and believe that bad things only happen to other "guilty" people, or should I say other guilty "Americans", government gets away with what ever it likes.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#108

Post by [deleted] »

youngerdryas wrote: post #58
twoodfin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't even begin to comprehend how bad your sources of information are if you think the levels of freedom in the U.S. and China are more closely comparable than those of the U.S. and Australia.

If he is sitting in Australia in fear of the US I think he needs more help than a few words will offer.

[deleted]

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#109

Post by gadders »

josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

This is ridiculous.

I don't see much chance of Obama and Biden swapping roles to get round term limits (Russia).

America doesn't also have 1,000s of dissidents in jail and widespread censoring and firewalling of external objectionable content.

Have you even been to America lately? And I'm saying this as a Brit.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#110

Post by eli_gottlieb »

powertower wrote: post #87
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

What you posted are a few negative events. What you did not post are the few million or billion positive events that happened at the same time. What you're reading/seeing is an ever increasingly opinionated and vocal crowd that think they possess the truth and are right about everything. They want a perfect system. And a simple system. And worst of all, they don't know what they don't know (how utterly destructive th…

"No Society Takes On the Characteristics of Its Exceptions".

That's a terrible phrasing. Every society generates the characteristics of its "exceptions" through its internal contradictions.

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