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RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

ravynos.com

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Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#101

Post by jeandrek »

itsrobreally wrote: post #72

I'm sort of surprised that development is still on X86 instead of moving over to ARM, it looks like the only builds for ARM are for raspberry pi - I know about Asahi but I would have thought that these darwin-based projects would have a leg up on booting even the latest hardware, is Apple not updating darwin anymore?

Here's macOS 26.5's XNU: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu/tree/ac9718fb... Could just be what the devs have available, if they're really already going to the trouble to target RPi?

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#102

Post by nrr »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #99
mrpippy wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, real apps use Mach messaging directly. i.e.: https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ipc...

Chrome is an outlier to how most apps will do things.

The illustration that Chrome uses Mach ports is a counterexample to an (implied) insinuation that nothing in running in macOS user space uses Mach ports. Outlier or not, the fact there is at least one (albeit also very useful and very popular) application that uses them ties back to the conversation about how they're a kernel feature worth having for Mac compatibility.

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#103

Post by yeko »

gnuplustoejam wrote: post #27
jdiff wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Four years and still pre-alpha. Stick a fork in it. Who jammed a toe in your cheerios?

What will you personally be contributing to the project to help move things along? Besides accolades on HN of course. I'm being real here and frankly blind, empty support of open-source projects does zero to support them.

Have you taken a look at the source? A lot of code is missing, and more gets redacted with every release. It's pretty clear apple don't welcome contributions and make source buildable

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#104

Post by junon »

itsrobreally wrote: post #72

I'm sort of surprised that development is still on X86 instead of moving over to ARM, it looks like the only builds for ARM are for raspberry pi - I know about Asahi but I would have thought that these darwin-based projects would have a leg up on booting even the latest hardware, is Apple not updating darwin anymore?

Kernel dev here (my own project):

ARM is great. Love it. There are tons of chips that all do things differently, much more so than x86. Plus the booting mechanisms are a PITA to figure out, debugging is tricky, etc - and that's a single target. x86 isn't particularly elegant given its years of cruft and questionable design decisions but at least it's quasi-consistent (yes, lots of "well actually" possible; I'm speaking broadly).

The ISA on ARM is better, IMO, than x86 but the surrounding ecosystem is hellishly fragmented. Just my $0.02. makes it difficult for OSdevers to find an 'in' to a wider ARM audience. rpi is a great entry point.

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#105

Post by nign »

So many people in these comments talking about this project like it's pitching itself as a ready to go replacement for MacOS... why are you expecting screenshots, this is a tiny project of ambitious scale that is only 5 years old. What they have achieved is brilliant.

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#107

Post by linguae »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #66
laxd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real apple-people would'nt consider this anyways. Open source geeks is were they can get traction. Seems like there is plenty of us that would like fbsd quality and vertical integration to the desktop level. There is effort but no breakthroughs.

The more technical side of the Mac user base would probably jump ship if a polished, open macOS analogue appeared. There's been a lot of discontent with changes dating as far back as 10.7 Lion, and has been gradually mounting more rapidly since 10.10 Yosemite and accelerating greatly with 13 Ventura through 26 Tahoe. There's substantial demand for a spiritual successor to OS X 10.4/10.6/10.9 that isn't being filled.

I agree. I would switch to an open source spiritual successor to even Tiger in a heartbeat if it were available.

The difficult part is replicating the ecosystem of applications. From a technological standpoint I would prefer a modern Linux distribution with KDE or Cinnamon over using 2005-era Mac OS X Tiger, though I’d gladly use a version of Tiger that was retrofitted with a modern Darwin core, modern libraries for security purposes, and an up-to-date web browser. However, Linux does not have Microsoft Office, the Adobe Creative Suite, Preview.app, Keynote, Dictionary.app, and other pleasant Mac apps. The FOSS alternatives are not as polished. Even venerable Office 2008 for Mac feels nicer than LibreOffice, and it’s compatible with the XML-based Office formats.

I guess for now I could run Tiger in an emulator, though admittedly current operating systems serve my needs, even if I prefer the polish of Tiger and Snow Leopard. I get really good performance running PowerPC Tiger inside QEMU on my base M4 Mac Mini and on my Ryzen 9 3900 desktop, definitely not as snappy as running Tiger on actual contemporary PowerPC hardware, but fast enough to actually be productive.

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#108

Post by felixding »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #66
laxd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real apple-people would'nt consider this anyways. Open source geeks is were they can get traction. Seems like there is plenty of us that would like fbsd quality and vertical integration to the desktop level. There is effort but no breakthroughs.

The more technical side of the Mac user base would probably jump ship if a polished, open macOS analogue appeared. There's been a lot of discontent with changes dating as far back as 10.7 Lion, and has been gradually mounting more rapidly since 10.10 Yosemite and accelerating greatly with 13 Ventura through 26 Tahoe. There's substantial demand for a spiritual successor to OS X 10.4/10.6/10.9 that isn't being filled.

Yes! If anyone wants to start such a project, call me in, or at least let me (and many others) support you financially.

Re: RavynOS: Pre-alpha open-source OS based on Darwin, FreeBSD, Apple open-source

#109

Post by cosmic_cheese »

linguae wrote: post #107
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more technical side of the Mac user base would probably jump ship if a polished, open macOS analogue appeared. There's been a lot of discontent with changes dating as far back as 10.7 Lion, and has been gradually mounting more rapidly since 10.10 Yosemite and accelerating greatly with 13 Ventura through 26 Tahoe. There's substantial demand for a spiritual successor to OS X 10.4/10.6/10.9 that isn't being filled.

I agree. I would switch to an open source spiritual successor to even Tiger in a heartbeat if it were available. The difficult part is replicating the ecosystem of applications. From a technological standpoint I would prefer a modern Linux distribution with KDE or Cinnamon over using 2005-era Mac OS X Tiger, though I’d gladly use a version of Tiger that was retrofitted with a modern Darwin core, modern libraries for…

I think this is one of those cases where “build it and they will come” applies.

The corporate giants are their own thing, but indie/small Mac devs are among some of the most steadfast early adopters in the software world. They routinely have new releases leveraging whatever new things were added at WWDC in the span of a few weeks or months. Many would be thrilled by a project that promises to bring back what they loved about OS X and would be happy to contribute.

The only problem is that the “it” that needs to be built is a set of frameworks that’s as robust as Cocoa/AppKit is, is flexible with language use (Mac apps have long rolled in C, C++, Ruby, and Python alongside Objective-C or Swift for UI), and isn’t afraid to be opinionated (a single well-supported “happy path” to do something is better than a dozen halfassed ways). That’s really the hardest part.

As for Tiger, on the Ryzen box you might get better performance from a hackintoshed x86 build (especially if you’ve got a spare PCI slot for passing through an old supported GPU for UI acceleration).

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