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How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

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101–110 of 189 posts

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#101
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess this is a consequence of people following orders. There's many people that should have refused the work along the way, but only the planner gets the blame, while I'd bet the planner was only following orders also.

So it’s nobody’s mistake?

No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying they are all blame worthy, and their culture itself is also blame worthy.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#102

Meanwhile, bay area has companies with market cap of 30T (50T?), has nonexistent/incompatible and the slowest public transit. 1) BART 'works' for a subset of the population. 2) ACE train is one route only, from Stockton to San Jose. 3) Caltrain is one straight line. Caltrain has a bullet train that takes an hour for ~20-30 miles. 4) There is a ferry service for some parts of north bay. There are probably dozens of ot…

SF Bay Area (land) has population density of a third of New York metro area or an eight of Tokyo metro area. The population density does not justify a world class public transit system. Not to mention there's a large body of water in the middle, which precludes building a lot of connections.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#103
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are serious issues with that approach. If you don't have continuous funding from the projects, you end up with a big overhead of highly paid engineers without work for them to do. Then you have to lay them off, so you lose the institutional knowledge anyway. We tried this early on with sound transit in Washington state, and because engineering work is boom and bust on a project by project basis, the model just…

I think it is for this reason that Switzerland has a fixed budget for their railway construction. And it seems to pay off, Swiss railway is exceptional.

With a small country, stable government, and national level funding, that's perfectly feasible. I wish that would work in the US, but we have hundreds of transit agencies that do capital projects.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are serious issues with that approach. If you don't have continuous funding from the projects, you end up with a big overhead of highly paid engineers without work for them to do. Then you have to lay them off, so you lose the institutional knowledge anyway. We tried this early on with sound transit in Washington state, and because engineering work is boom and bust on a project by project basis, the model just…

What about renting them out to other cities? There are dozens of cities in Europe alone that are planning extensions of their metro systems, or even building ones from scratch (Cluj-Napoca in Romania, recently. Krakow in Poland soon.) A morbid equivalent from the Middle Ages: bigger medieval cities had their own headsman, and they solved the risk of underemployment by sending him on external "jobs" to smaller towns w…

At that point, you're just hiring an engineering firm, so there's no real benefit to government doing it.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#105
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone prefer public transit over a self driving comfortable personal car?

Because public transit, done well, is the fastest way to move around. It gets you everywhere, even to places personal vehicles can't reach. It's a lot cheaper. It generates hubs of activity that keep cities lively and relevant. It doesn't get stuck in traffic. It doesn't need to be parked. The benefits of good public transport are so mind blowing that it's difficult to explain unless you have lived on a city that has…

Hmm I disagree. I lived in Madrid. In fact in one of those cities that this article mentions from the new subway construction. Subway takes 1h15min to reach the city center. Car only takes 30 minutes.

This is because when you are building a subway every one wants their station. The map above may look like straight lines, but if you look at the real map, the north of line 10 is not straight at all, it's more zig zag.

We are trying to make transportation work for everyone and we end up with transportation that works for no one.

Also, the subway closes at midnight, and by Spanish standards, that's early. I was stranded twice (because different stations close at different times) until i decided that I would never take public transport in Madrid again

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#106
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In India metro is either built by private companies in a Public Private Partnership Or by govt orgs by contracting it out. Both styles have resulted in massive delays so much so that it has become a meme that metro will be inaugurated 100yrs into the future Maybe if Govt hired actual engineers like they do for railways then metros will be prioritised

Depends on the state and the political environment. Some people will deliberately sabotage projects for political reasons. The biggest problem with metros in India is the inability to provide last mile connectivity. Some cities will run buses in competition to metro lines, or provide free bus travel to women. Both actions compete against a fast mode of travel. So, it is an India problem, not a government problem.

metro construction is delayed in every state ruling party or opposition

Look at the memes for Pune metro line 3 and for Karnataka metro (forgot which line)

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In India metro is either built by private companies in a Public Private Partnership Or by govt orgs by contracting it out. Both styles have resulted in massive delays so much so that it has become a meme that metro will be inaugurated 100yrs into the future Maybe if Govt hired actual engineers like they do for railways then metros will be prioritised

Metro doesn't use PPP or directly public in any Indian city I can think of, they setup SPVs and actually have stable engineering and finance teams across contracts. And most of the engineers are taken from railways only in any case. And it's a really good promotion path, ministers are known to select successful metro spv administrators for lucrative roles in the state secretariat. They even have lateral movement betw…

Some metros are PPP Some are by contractors

However, all are perpetually delayed

Pune metro line 3's construction status was 85+% for over 1yr now

Land acquisition was over a long time ago. Progress on road is just invisible despite being built by a private company which will operate it for the next 30yrs

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#108
What this article misses is that the line 10 expansion to the north was a clear attempt at gaining votes and not an attempt at designing a good subway.

If you look at the physical map, you will see that it visits multiple towns that are not in a straight line from Madrid. This causes the line to "zig-zag" and what should take 20 minutes in a straight line becomes a 1h 15min ride.

People use it because Madrid has started being hostile to cars and the only two alternatives are trains (which is pretty good, takes 30 min) or buses

It's also not 24/7, closes at midnight (and if you are going out in Spain, you will stay way later than that)

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#109
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Utilities were generally public prior to this. Which utilities do you believe were government-funded or government-owned in the West? I will grant you most water supplies. Which other utilities?

NZ: Electricity, gas, public transport, telecommunications.

And have any of those NZ utilities been privatized?

Where are these utilities that were public, then were privatized? Not AFAIK in the US where the intercity and freight rail lines, telegraph lines, telephone systems, natural-gas-distribution networks, electrical grid, cable-TV grid and last-mile internet networks started out private. Maybe in Britain? But if so, the person I replied to should make it clear that his critique applies only to Britain.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about renting them out to other cities? There are dozens of cities in Europe alone that are planning extensions of their metro systems, or even building ones from scratch (Cluj-Napoca in Romania, recently. Krakow in Poland soon.) A morbid equivalent from the Middle Ages: bigger medieval cities had their own headsman, and they solved the risk of underemployment by sending him on external "jobs" to smaller towns w…

At that point, you're just hiring an engineering firm, so there's no real benefit to government doing it.

There is, because your own projects always get a priority. Plus, the institutional history. If the same group of people projected your metro for the last 40 years, they carry a lot of local know-how in their heads.
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