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Shooting down ideas is not a skill

scottlawsonbc.com

101–110 of 187 posts

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is value in critically evaluating ideas and possible endeavors. On the other hand, demanding an answer to every little pocket of uncertainty creates a huge burden that prevents exploration. It's one thing to be exhaustive in the criticism by examining individual scenarios, evaluating cost benefit in a measurable way, etc. That doesn't seem to be what the author is describing. He's describing critical & low effo…

>On the other hand, demanding an answer to every little pocket of uncertainty creates a huge burden that prevents exploration. How do you explore an idea, other than trying to shoot it down and seeing if it survives the shot?

You can fire the shot and then patch the hole at the same time, proposing solutions to the same problem you pointed out, rather than just shooting and letting one person handle defense from every attack.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#103
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats, you've killed the idea in its infancy because you demanded answers to questions before it could even walk. Ideas need time to be explored, and given a chance.

>Ideas need time to be explored, and given a chance. sure, and the time for that is before you bring them to potential critics. unless a meeting is intended as a brainstorming session where any thought, no matter how unformed, is welcome, meetings are not a time to present your initial unexplored thoughts to colleagues, bosses, or other departments. take a couple days, think about it without spending other people's t…

You must have very different kinds of meetings than I do. Unless you're going into that meeting with a rehearsed PowerPoint presentation, or there's a strict agenda that doesn't allow any time for exploration, I expect to hear imperfect-ideas-in-infancy. One of the reasons we have meetings is to allow collaboration to happen. It's a format for working together.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#104
post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

There is value in critically evaluating ideas and possible endeavors. On the other hand, demanding an answer to every little pocket of uncertainty creates a huge burden that prevents exploration. It's one thing to be exhaustive in the criticism by examining individual scenarios, evaluating cost benefit in a measurable way, etc. That doesn't seem to be what the author is describing. He's describing critical & low effo…

These are the table stakes of uncertainty, not delving into every little pocket. If the language and ops are under question, this sounds like an entire new project or significant extension. The bit of time it takes to answer all those questions is worth it.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#105
post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

There is value in critically evaluating ideas and possible endeavors. On the other hand, demanding an answer to every little pocket of uncertainty creates a huge burden that prevents exploration. It's one thing to be exhaustive in the criticism by examining individual scenarios, evaluating cost benefit in a measurable way, etc. That doesn't seem to be what the author is describing. He's describing critical & low effo…

> He's describing critical & low effort cheap shots.

The examples he used included: the plan depends on a different team providing labour and that team is not on board, the business plan for the idea does not make sense.

I suppose they are low effort in the sense that they are very basic 101 criticisms, but i wouldn't call them cheap shots.

Literally no plan is ever going to work if it involves the labour of others without their (or their supperiors) consent. It seems to me a very valid criticism to make. That doesn't mean its the end of the idea, it means you need to have a plan to either get the other stakeholders on board, or a plan to do it without them.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#106
> Someone proposes an idea in a meeting.

Soooo, either this is a low-effort initial spitball, or it's something bigger that probably should have been broached separately.

> The person proposing has been thinking about this for weeks or months. They've tested pieces of it in their head or even built proofs of concept. They understand things about the idea that aren't obvious yet. And they're trying to explain all of this to a room full of people encountering it for the first time.

Ohhh, something bigger. Why would you first propose it in a meeting? If the meeting is about something else, it's probably not the right forum. If the meeting was called about this particular idea, then (a) if you really did all that work up front, you probably should have shared first, and (b) you really should be able to anticipate and have answers for the most likely criticisms.

Seriously, doing a bunch of upfront work and then trying to present it as a fait accompli in a meeting to a bunch of people who have never seen it or thought about it is never going to go well.

And whining about the fact that it didn't go well on the internet just makes it obvious that you still don't have any clues about human nature.

Look, you are right that there is often resistance to new ideas. But you are not going to alter human nature, and the right way to get your ideas across is obviously a different approach than the one that you chose.

> Shooting down ideas is easy. The hard part is sheltering the flame long enough to see what it becomes.

As other commenters have discussed, this is simply wrong.

But even more than that, this sentiment, and your whole post say much more about you than the others who you denigrate for "shooting ideas down."

Your attempt to "teach" others about this moment proves that you, yourself, did not learn the correct lessons from it.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#107
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats, you've killed the idea in its infancy because you demanded answers to questions before it could even walk. Ideas need time to be explored, and given a chance.

>Ideas need time to be explored, and given a chance. sure, and the time for that is before you bring them to potential critics. unless a meeting is intended as a brainstorming session where any thought, no matter how unformed, is welcome, meetings are not a time to present your initial unexplored thoughts to colleagues, bosses, or other departments. take a couple days, think about it without spending other people's t…

[deleted]

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#108
post #73
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats, you've killed the idea in its infancy because you demanded answers to questions before it could even walk. Ideas need time to be explored, and given a chance.

Isn’t proving a market exists, building a proof of concept, etc, all examples of exploring an idea? Those seem like perfectly reasonable expectations.

If the proof of concept takes an hour to code up, or proving the market exists just takes a bit of googling, then sure, you can prepare that before the first meeting where you suggest the idea.

If the proof of concept requires spending a few days in the machine shop making jigs and parts, purchasing equipment, and a custom PCB, then I really hope you'll bring it up for discussion beforehand in a meeting. Ten minutes of discussion with colleagues might be as useful as several iterations of prototyping. Not so that they'll shoot it down, but because someone might say "oh yeah, we have a spare mcguffin from last year's demo that you can use, should save you lots of time."

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#109

The skill of shooting down ideas has never been more valuable, actually. LLM's are an endless source of bad code ideas. Being able to sift through them and find the gems is the exhausting way to be productive. I agree with the general premise that it is easy to shoot down ideas without thinking. But it's also easy to propose ideas without thinking. Both are disrespectful if disproportionate to the effort of the other…

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Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ideas need time to be explored, and given a chance. sure, and the time for that is before you bring them to potential critics. unless a meeting is intended as a brainstorming session where any thought, no matter how unformed, is welcome, meetings are not a time to present your initial unexplored thoughts to colleagues, bosses, or other departments. take a couple days, think about it without spending other people's t…

You must have very different kinds of meetings than I do. Unless you're going into that meeting with a rehearsed PowerPoint presentation, or there's a strict agenda that doesn't allow any time for exploration, I expect to hear imperfect-ideas-in-infancy. One of the reasons we have meetings is to allow collaboration to happen. It's a format for working together.

Yes, meetings vary profoundly in terms of their quality, purpose, and participation. For instance, is it a meeting of peers, or are managers in the room? If there's a large disparity of roles in attendance (e.g., junior engineers, marketing managers, and maybe one or two executives), it's different than if it's a true meeting of peers. And if managers are capable of attending those meetings without quashing collaboration, hats off to them.
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