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An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

openttd.org

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Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#101

Post by [deleted] »

anthk wrote: post #69
bjt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that these exist does not mean that they're immune from legal challenge. If the original creators wanted to sue, there are all kinds of claims that would have a decent shot in court (e.g. trademark, trade dress, design patents) besides "you copied our copyrighted source code." The clones exist more because people are being cool about it, and because there's not a strong economic incentive to challenge them.…

Sony vs Bleem. They already lost this case in court.

[deleted]

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#102

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #95
WarcrimeActual wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, they own it. They have every right to cease and desist, I assume, and haven't. That's generous compared to most companies reactions already.

> Thing is, they own it. No, they don't. They own the game data, and the original game engine. They don't own the reimplemented Open Source game engine. OpenTTD did not have to do anything here. It sounds like they had a very positive interaction with Atari, in which Atari is providing them with some support and collaboration, and in exchange for that, OpenTTD agreed to formalize the requirement for "you need to own…

Though it's no longer a clone, it literally was a clone when it first started (you were even supposed to supply your own totally legitimately acquired asset packs).

So it'd be pretty much impossible to claim the engine came about as a clean room implementation. And of course, even if maybe they could win a court case (honestly don't think they could) the mere threat of one would likely make openttd quit.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#103

Post by JoshTriplett »

WarcrimeActual wrote: post #100
JoshTriplett wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thing is, they own it. No, they don't. They own the game data, and the original game engine. They don't own the reimplemented Open Source game engine. OpenTTD did not have to do anything here. It sounds like they had a very positive interaction with Atari, in which Atari is providing them with some support and collaboration, and in exchange for that, OpenTTD agreed to formalize the requirement for "you need to own…

They do own it. Any court would likely agree that what OpenTTD does is copy an IP they own. And they'd have the right to C&D it.

Reverse engineering for compatibility, and implementation of a compatible system (as long as you don't copy the original) are not just legal, they're explicitly legally protected in many jurisdictions. You'll get in serious trouble if you copy the original, but there is specific case law supporting things like emulators. See, for instance, Sony v Connectix and Sega v Accolade.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#104

Post by johnnyanmac »

legitster wrote: post #15

As a sidenote, this whole situation implies just how important platforms are. Nothing about OpenTTD has changed. You can literally just go download it off their website for free - same as it was 20 years ago. And you can add it to your Steam library just fine. It's only been on the Steam store for 5 of those years. But the open internet is dead now and just being "de-merchandised" from a platform feels like being rel…

That's why we need to reel in these platforms. The mobile ones are slowly starting to relent, but that's only the beginning.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#105

Post by johnnyanmac »

nazgulsenpai wrote: post #47
lstodd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open internet is dead only to those that don't take the effort to discover. Otherwise it's still as open as it always was. Since there was an internet to speak of, there always were and still are vast amounts of people unaware of stuff that exists, limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire.

I use a similar argument to those who say that gaming is dead. Sure, if you're waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change, it's probably dead, but you don't even have to look that far to find amazing games everywhere in indie and AA.

Gaming feels dead to devs these days. But I know that's not what gamers care about.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#106

Post by superxpro12 »

aeturnum wrote: post #70

I don't have much to add except to say that I think this is a stand-out example of how companies and preservationists should work together and not against each other. The childish folks who are upset about this aren't familiar with the realties of either open source games perseveration nor the realities of being an IP holder. This is as close as we have gotten to the Good Place. I wish Atari luck on the re-release an…

This is about as much as you can hope for tbh. More than a fair compromise.

Society has become quite 'entitled' to 'free' things. As popular as they are, torrents and free streams and emulation and clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact.

Now, those rights violations viewed in a larger context may change one's opinion on the whole, and I'm not jumping into that debate today.

Atari did a cool thing. That's rare in the corporate world today. Give praise where it's deserved.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#107

Post by BowBun »

StableAlkyne wrote: post #53
lstodd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even. Relying on third-party ranking of whatever is a clear indicator of lack of effort.

Short of developing psychic abilities, how would you then address the discoverability problem without relying on a third party? Forums, search engines, social media, and link aggregators are all third parties with their own ranking. Nobody outside of a handful of small-web hobbyists have put a "cool links" section into a website since 1997.

This is classic engineering missing the forest for the trees.

The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly.

There's a funny obsession in tech circles to gather all the information they can as quick as possible. I much prefer to optimize for the quality of information I'm ingesting.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#108

Post by johnnyanmac »

skydhash wrote: post #59
StableAlkyne wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short of developing psychic abilities, how would you then address the discoverability problem without relying on a third party? Forums, search engines, social media, and link aggregators are all third parties with their own ranking. Nobody outside of a handful of small-web hobbyists have put a "cool links" section into a website since 1997.

There’s always a relationship aspect in discoverability. Unless the set is small, there will always be intermediary nodes in that graph that will connect consumers and producers. But there’s no need for it to be a mega tech company. Radio DJs help with discovering musics. Books club can help with recommending books.

Doesn't need to be, but most traffic is driven by search. I reckon 2nd most common is influencers, and I don't know if that's an upgrade (even easier to buy out).

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#109

Post by comex »

anthk wrote: post #69
bjt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that these exist does not mean that they're immune from legal challenge. If the original creators wanted to sue, there are all kinds of claims that would have a decent shot in court (e.g. trademark, trade dress, design patents) besides "you copied our copyrighted source code." The clones exist more because people are being cool about it, and because there's not a strong economic incentive to challenge them.…

Sony vs Bleem. They already lost this case in court.

That was a very different case.

Out of the two claims, the only one that made it to appeals court was about whether it was fair use for Bleem to use screenshots of PS1 games to advertise its emulator (which was compatible with those games). The Ninth Circuit decided it was. But that's not relevant here.

The other claim was more relevant, as it was an unfair competition claim that apparently had something to do with Bleem's reimplementation of the PS1 BIOS. But the district court's record of the case doesn't seem to be available online, and the information I was able to find online was vague, so I don't know what exactly the facts or legal arguments were on that claim. Without an appeal it also doesn't set precedent.

If there were a lawsuit over OpenTTD, it would probably be for copyright infringement rather than unfair competition, and it would probably focus more on fair use and copyrightability. For fair use, it matters how much something is functional versus creative. The PS1 BIOS is relatively functional, but a game design and implementation are highly creative. On the other hand, despite being creative, game mechanics by themselves are not copyrightable. So it might come down to the extent to which OpenTTD's code was based on the reverse-engineered original code, as opposed to being a truly from-scratch reimplementation of the same mechanics. Visual appearance would also be relevant. Oracle v. Google would be an important precedent.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#110

Post by johnnyanmac »

skydhash wrote: post #62
itsdesmond wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is as good an argument as saying that Americans with unhealthy diets bear sole responsibility, ignoring the massive corporate efforts to convince them of the healthfulness of highly processed foods. While, obviously, individuals have ultimate responsibility for their actions, ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions through psychology, marketing/ads, paid “experts”, paid influencers and celebrit…

> It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all). It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. If you’re a consumer, you look outside the walled platform for content.

>It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms.

I want to try one day. Steam's pricing parity adds friction to that, though. I can't reward people for venturing to a place where they own their software, and that seems to be the only real way to move many.

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