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Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

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Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#101

Post by eli »

ale42 wrote: post #13
st_goliath wrote: post #9

> Viva.com's outgoing verification emails lack a Message-ID header, a requirement that has been part of the Internet Message Format specification (RFC 5322) since 2008 > ... > `Message-ID` is one of the most basic required headers in email. Section 3.6. of the RFC in question ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5322.html ) says: +----------------+--------+------------+----------------------------+ | Field | Min | Max…

The official definition of SHOULD per RFC2119: 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. Not sure how the people at Google interpreted this about the message-id

You assume that internet standards are prescriptivist; that the document describes how it is to be implemented. In practice it's often descriptivist, with the standards documents playing catch-up with how things are actually going in practice.

Anyway, in general you can expect that doing unusual but technically valid things with email headers will very often get your messages rejected or filtered as spam.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#102

Post by davsti4 »

"Email is tough", software development is tough, IT is tough, walking and talking at the same time is tough, mailing a letter is tough.

When orgs frame problems like this, it erodes trust in the message they try to convey. Email isn't a tough problem, but its a problem nobody wants to really deal with. Email is simple - its a text based protocol, that started out open, but now you need to add security to ensure your email is delivered.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#104

Post by newsoftheday »

flerchin wrote: post #6

The specific bug is annoying, but that there's no way to report such a thing is an exact hallmark of our current corposphere.

Google's Postmaster Tools site has a "Report deliverabilty issue" link at the bottom left navigation column.

https://postmaster.google.com/v2/sender_compliance

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#105

Post by afavour »

tietjens wrote: post #65
afavour wrote: post #42

I have some level of sympathy with Google here, which isn’t something I often say. I recently switched from Gmail to Fastmail and by and large I’m happy with it. But I’ve been surprised by the amount of spam and (particularly) phishing emails I get in a regular basis. Google might be too strict in its filtering but it does serve a legitimate purpose.

I've considered this switch. You're saying that previously gmail was dropping the emails, or they were landing in spam?

Presumably they were in spam. But I rarely ever checked my spam folder to know with certainty.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#106

Post by tracker1 »

iso1631 wrote: post #5

> Their support team's response to my detailed bug report: "your account has a verified email, so there's no problem." Sadly I doubt their system is xkcd806 compatible ether. This isn't an engineering problem, it's an ITIL problem. To be fair 99% of these complaints will be dealt with by the flow chart. Sadly people on the front line are either not knowledgable enough or not empowered enough to bust out of that strai…

I usually reply with snark dialed up about 50% asking if anyone had actually read the original message. And include detail about how it is not, in fact, "ok"

The other day, I literally had trouble signing into a website... then I tried filling the contact us form, about the bug... only to have that fail... call in, have the person on the other end schedule my appointment, then almost drop the call without actually logging my bug report/complaint about the whole issue that had me calling in the first place.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#107

Post by roysting »

zoobab wrote: post #75
st_goliath wrote: post #9

> Viva.com's outgoing verification emails lack a Message-ID header, a requirement that has been part of the Internet Message Format specification (RFC 5322) since 2008 > ... > `Message-ID` is one of the most basic required headers in email. Section 3.6. of the RFC in question ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5322.html ) says: +----------------+--------+------------+----------------------------+ | Field | Min | Max…

Avoid SHALL, SHOULD and all other crap, use Elon MUST.

SHALL has been interpreted/clarified by US courts as not being a fancy MUST or REQUIRED that many people were taught it to mean, but SHOULD still has it's purposes, e.g., to provide contractual flexibility in development, i.e., a MUST/REQUIRED requirement was more challenging or complicated and took up more time/resources than anticipated, so SHOULDs can be trimmed due to contingencies.

Another example may be a lightweight implementation of a spec in a limited and/or narrow environment, which remains technically compliant with full implementations of a spec but interaction with such a limited/narrow environment comes with awareness about such limitations.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#108

Post by lokar »

hughw wrote: post #91

Postel’s Law would put the onus on Google to be forgiving in what it receives. Unsure how you could safely use a sender-created Message-Id for anything anyway.

That “law” if from a different time, before protocols like SMTP became adversarial. It assumed everyone was acting in good faith.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#109

Post by oasisbob »

tracker1 wrote: post #85
oasisbob wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deliverability to Microsoft famously took a dive a bit over a year ago due to random arbitrary failures within their infrastructure causing DMARC/DKIM problems which they clearly were having problems diagnosing. Even with a six-figure email spend and weeks of troubleshooting the best response we could get from our mail provider was that they were having problems getting traction with Microsoft on the issue.

Worth mentioning is that there are several email umbrellas under Microsoft... including the newer office/365, the slightly older outlook.com hosting, the old corp hosting and hotmail and sub-properties... each with different rules and services to determine spam in inconsistent ways between them. One of my main emails is still on a "free" outlook.com hosted with a personal domain that I never shifted to paid 365. I've…

This issue didn't seem to discriminate. I was seeing deliverability failures to Office 365 clients as well as consumer-facing brands like hotmail and msn

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#110

Post by lowdude »

afavour wrote: post #42

I have some level of sympathy with Google here, which isn’t something I often say. I recently switched from Gmail to Fastmail and by and large I’m happy with it. But I’ve been surprised by the amount of spam and (particularly) phishing emails I get in a regular basis. Google might be too strict in its filtering but it does serve a legitimate purpose.

Interesting that you mention this, as I also switched to Fastmail recently and got more spam than before, but after marking it as spam for some time it now died down I think. This may also be a symptom of changing providers, where the previous provider knew the kind of spam I tended to get from past years, while Fastmail needed some time to get up to speed.

Fingers crossed that the experience will be the same for you.

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