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The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

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Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#101
While correct for many parts this article gets a few things wrong imho,

- People in the early 90s probably weren't there so much for the demos as for the swapping (ie game copying), it was called copy-parties before it was called lan or demoparties.

--> As such , the numbers of really active sceners was probably about the same all through the 90s up until 2000, the decline in some areas was probably more a function of money being available to talented people as well as the internet overtaking reasons for gatherings (being copying or gaming)

- "The farting around with 6502's (C64) and blitters(Amiga)" is partly a Swedish thing. (related to the mentioned Dreamhack lan/esport-parties)

--> Those who never left and/or are return-ees (people with grown kids) are heavily into those retro-machines because they were a tad older and grew up with that and always held that special place for them. The last large Swedish demo-generations are still tied up in their careers and/or kids and haven't really begun returning (if they ever will thatis).

- The actually somewhat eventful story of Dreamhack (And the early demise of the Swedish demoscene rejuvenation)

--> Swedish sceners started earlier to get adopted into commercial endeavors, but the death-knell was that a deadly discotheque fire in Gothenburg had happened a few weeks before the 1998 Dreamhack event, rowdy sceners were thrown out since a nervous organization didn't dare have any scandalous behavior after pressure from teen parents with sceners subsequently deciding to start boycotting Dreamhack. Once that rift had happened and quality suffered there was never any real push about keeping the demoscene as a part of their lan-focused culture with an eventual total demise happening.

I think cultures have thresholds, we tried and actually managed some rejuvenation while some of us in that last large Swedish generation was still in our 20s (however as the article points out, it was a trickle and we were probably too few with the wrong focus perhaps), now in our 40s we're probably not going to be inspiring any teens directly.

Also the engagement threshold, as many from our generations are now established professionals (like from people that designed the EA-Frostbite engine,etc) the quality put out as "side-projects" are still enormously more adept than what beginners can approach, yet feeble compared to the pure engineering effort managed by the professional game making tools.

Sure you can easily partake, but it's probably demotivating knowing that what you make has such a long way to go (we feel it ourselves).

Will it die out totally? I was actually more worried 5-10 years ago, kids need creative outlets and the entire AI-storm that might make some demotivated will also create more unemployment for capable people, and after all, the golden eras were during times when kids were getting talented but couldn't find jobs for those talents.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#102
post #46

Much love for the demo scene, where it all began for me, pulling all nighters as a teenager writing 68k assembler in asmone on the amiga.. phreaking calls to euro BBS, writing trainers and intro for games, scanning 1800 numbers for diverters/PBX systems to exploit, pulling all your best assembler graphics routines together for your crew's newest demo for release at all-weekend demo/LAN parties.. normal teenage activi…

absolutely positively right

(been there, done that, got several t-shirts :-) )

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly; it’s like model railroads or stamp collecting. Never truly dead! (I mean this with deep sarcasm.)

I went to a coin/stamp shop not too long ago to kill some time downtown and the guy said basically nobody cares about stamps anymore. Still plenty interested in coins.

With the decline of interest in stamp collecting, are the prices of rare stamps and collections also depreciating?

Or maybe the prices are even higher because the few who are interested know that stamps are forever a thing of the past, and in a way that makes them more unique and have timeless value.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#104
post #100

In my experience the old computer nerd communities don't do much to help get young people that would be interested into it. A lot of the discussion online mainly just consists of reminiscing about how amazing the '80s were. Documentation is also in something of a state—the big video game consoles (NES, SNES, Genesis..) all have plenty of free, modern high quality guides teaching you how to program them from nothing,…

the 80's were amazing :-)

I was there and they weren't.

Much better times today, imo.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#105
post #50

In all fairness, the conditions that saw the demo scene rising are so remote to be almost incomprehensible to the new generation. "You see, when a cracking crew beat the protection of a new game, they would upload their hacked version to an elite BBS and repackaged it with a little intro and a trainer. They had to be very creative and skilled, often working directly in assembler, in order to achieve impressive imager…

I think the conditions of the demoscene arising were a software interface that consisted of coding, and people's first experience with a computer was 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD!" 20 GOTO 10 RUN This piqued the interest of curious youth, who then were further enabled by a hardware interface where you could write a value into an area of memory, which would then appear as a pixel on screen.

Exactly this. Whenever I talk about how I got started in computer art over 40 years ago, I always mention the fact that a screen back then was a one-way device: TV network to you. Basic home computers HAD to plug into the TV, and to a kid, this was magic and freedom.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#107
post #99
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFXIGHOElrE https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=59105

Revision 2012 though...

Yes? The point is that it was already "dead" back then yet here we are in 13 years later and guess what it's still not actually dead.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#108
post #91

Physically, demos and game development have advanced far beyond where they were at the beginning of the demoscene, but now people no longer come together. Game engines and devices have become accessible to everyone, and people are constantly inventing new things. For example, just look at the number of algorithms and new gameplay mechanics now compared to 10 years ago. In 2012, I created a live coding platform and sp…

I don't really think it's fair to compare game engines with the demoscene. The demoscene is really about exploiting hardware to the fullest extent and that's not really an economic advantage when you get new GPUs every year that are 50% to 30% faster. now, creative hacks can increase performance several hundred percent, but is this sustainable for a product? probably not. certain hacks are very specific and that redu…

yeah, companies wants little effort for bigger effect. They want maintainable code, etc. Clever hacks are not really welcome.

Now that PC's are so powerful, you look for algorithms optimisation. And although it requires a ton of cleverness as well, it's much more documented than obscure hacks. You learn that at school.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#109
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vim and emacs guys had to join forces to flame the greater evil - Electron-based editors.

And they’ve lost. Everyone and their cousin uses Electron editors while showing up to FOSDEM on their MacBooks to discuss kernel development. It’s already long over. We’re just starting to notice. The EFF is baffled - why do they yell in a void now, when just a decade ago they stopped SOPA/PIPA with dramatic effect? The free internet and the communities that support it have lost their voice and their cultural support…

The most recent Stack Overflow survey have vim at 25% and neovim at 14% for the question "Which development environments and AI-enabled code editing tools did you use regularly over the past year, and which do you want to work with over the next year?" Even more interesting is that for the 2023 survey Vim and Neovim were at 22.3% and 11.8% respectively.

If the goal is to get more than 50% usage statistics then yeah, you can say they lost, but are dev tools only valid/useful/viable if they have a majority of developers using them? I say they've had tremendous success being able to provide viable tools with literally zero corporate support and a much smaller user base.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#110
It's dying because the home amateur PC is on its last legs.

And the cracking scene has now to grapple with hellish online activation.

And then many workflows have become sort of professional or moved to the web altogether.

And the younger generation, having received access to gigabytes of RAM and storage, simply couldn't care less about being super lean and fast.

There's really no future for the scene.

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