More women than expected are genetically men (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#101

Post by lagadu » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:23 PM UTC

kijjun wrote: post #82

r14c wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

controversial, sure, but its mostly people being upset that their cultural norms don't match the traits we observe in humans. we have already established that chromosomes do not determine gender, whether people accept it is a different question. we're also nearing the point where the earth being a spheroid is controversial so I'm not sure controversy really has anything to do with how factual something is.

Who is "we"? That is not established at all, in fact the opposite is objectively true and widely understood. Chromosomes are the key determinant of "gender", by even the most progressive definition of the term.

If anything chromossomes would be the key determinant of sex, not gender. But even that's not how we attribute sex: biologically sex is attributed by the capacity to generate small or big gamete, which means that someone who doesn't produce either type, such as a child or elderly person has no sex.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#102

Post by tbrownaw » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:24 PM UTC

kulahan wrote: post #8

etchalon wrote: post #5

I'm shocked to find out that sex is more complicated than gender identity, and that there might be a bimodal distribution at play. I have been lied to.

Nothing in biology is really binary anyways. Male and female are just useful groupings because we’re a sexually dimorphic species, but as with anything in nature, that’s mostly a spectrum anyways, with strong representations at the anchoring ends.

Why say it's limited to biology? Even the binary logic in your computer can sometimes get stuck in a metastable state that's neither a 1 nor a 0. It's fundamentally impossible to completely prevent because of how physics works.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#103

Post by Barrin92 » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:24 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #55

Barrin92 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stood out for me as well. For all I care you could tell me I'm genetically a giraffe or I was sent here from Alpha Centauri. If I was fine with it an hour ago when you hadn't told me I'm fine with it now

I think you are coming from a good place, but it is better to not compare our imaginary and implausible concerns (like discovering we’re a giraffe or from another planet) with real problems that people might actually have. I think you actually would have a lot to think about if you found out that you were a giraffe, but we don’t really have to seriously contend with that possibility or what it means. Yes, it is good…

>with real problems that people might actually have.

But it's not a real problem, that's my point. The infertility is obviously, but that's not the identity issue here. Most people with infertility issues don't have a sex or gender identity problem, but a medical one.

Insofar as your genes matter in regards to your sex, they can only matter in what they express, and that's already done. It's like someone telling you they switched the blueprints for your house up, and you were supposed to have your neighbors house. But whatever you've been living in for 30 years, it's still the same place. Everything that's wrong with it is still wrong and everything that's good about it is still good.

Your body can matter to your identity because it's what you experience, but your genes can't unless you start to in a sense fetishize your genetic markup.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#104

Post by lukev » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:25 PM UTC

pseudosavant wrote: post #77

sunshowers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

Societal gender norms have existed for probably as long as humans have, but we've only known about chromosomes for On the scale of human evolution, this is a very recent situation for society to figure out how to "decide".

There are plenty of cultures around the world that conceptualize gender differently than we do, as well. Including many where there are options where individuals can choose their gender, in various circumstances or for various purposes.

So actually on the scale of human evolution, humans have been making different choices about matters like these since we've been humans.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#105

Post by EnergyAmy » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:25 PM UTC

sunshowers wrote: post #40

pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

Michael Phelps has already had his records broken. Women will never break men's records across a wide range of sports. I keep seeing him brought up, but it's in no way comparable.

Pushing for allowing men into women's sports based on gender identity will result in the extinction of women's sports. If you want that, at least be honest about it.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#106

Post by EnergyAmy » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:26 PM UTC

sunshowers wrote: post #91

gruez wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I remember seeing the first transgender woman competing in weightlifting, on the olympic stage. So like the most elite of the most elite competition, in a sport where you'd think muscle mass, skeletal size, and testosterone would matter the most. And she finished dead last. What happens when other transgender women (sincere or not) realize that they can compete in women's completions, and that their past testosteron…

A 99th percentile trans woman would be competing with other people who have 99th percentile biological advantages, is what I'm trying to say.

99th percentile men will beat 99th percentile women in sports 100% of the time. There is no fairness.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#107

Post by sunshowers » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:27 PM UTC

EnergyAmy wrote: post #105

sunshowers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

Michael Phelps has already had his records broken. Women will never break men's records across a wide range of sports. I keep seeing him brought up, but it's in no way comparable. Pushing for allowing men into women's sports based on gender identity will result in the extinction of women's sports. If you want that, at least be honest about it.

Sorry, what?

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#108

Post by sunshowers » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:28 PM UTC

EnergyAmy wrote: post #106

sunshowers wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 99th percentile trans woman would be competing with other people who have 99th percentile biological advantages, is what I'm trying to say.

99th percentile men will beat 99th percentile women in sports 100% of the time. There is no fairness.

We're talking about 99th percentile women competing against each other though?

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#109

Post by qingcharles » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:28 PM UTC

pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

We, as a society, need to understand there is no good solution to the issue of gender in sports (excluding gender-neutral ones like shooting etc).

Should all just play esports instead.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#110

Post by hydrogen7800 » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 5:28 PM UTC

deadbabe wrote: post #25

pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

Ask a person bound by cerebral palsy with a dream to play pro basketball what fairness is.

Some disabilities cannot be overcome by public acceptance and accommodation, and some can to varying degrees, eg. the Americans With Disabilities Act.