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The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

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Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#101

Post by jxf »

highfrequency wrote: post #96
grues-dinner wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something that I think about sometimes. Life on Earth has had billions of years and expanded to fill so many niches, but they're nearly all damp niches. Nothing has ever really managed to really thrive in deserts. Sure, there are a few cacti, succulents, a bit of scrub, a few palms and rodents and a few birds that eke out an existence. But really it's mostly barren, compared to temperate or tropical climates…

More counterintuitively: why hasn't any major bacteria evolved to feast on lipids like oils? Much denser source of energy than desert dirt.

There are many such bacteria, some of which are living in and on your skin right now.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#102

Post by meindnoch »

mkbkn wrote: post #61
wtvanhest wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think these probabilities are correct. Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times. In an extreme example… only 20 parents fed their kids honey and 20 kids contracted botulism. That would be a 100% risk. Obviously in real life it’s not 100% of kids, but still could be a meaningful percentage and likely higher than 1 in 50,000 for babies that eat honey.

Feeding honey to newborn babies is a common practice in India. Sometimes it's their first ever food.

Yeah, and their infant mortality is on par with Sub-Saharan Africa.

"The second most common prelacteal feed is honey, a delicious natural sweetener. Numerous studies [29,30] have shown that the ingestion of honey under one year of age is linked with infant botulism, a disease that results in a blockade of voluntary motor and autonomic functions. Apart from this, other prelacteal feeds get contaminated due to unhygienic environment, especially in rural India and in urban slums, resulting in infantile diarrhea. Thus, a wide range of prelacteal feeds and the introduction of early supplements result in recurrent diarrhea with multiple illness finally ending lives because of inaccessibility and unaffordibility of treatment and delayed or inappropriate care seeking behavior."

Rohini Ghosh - Child mortality in India: a complex situation (https://doi.org/10.1007/s12519-012-0331-y)

The paper lists a bunch of other traditional practices that have deleterious effects on the infants' health, such as putting unsanitary herbal concoctions on the babies navel while it's still healing, etc.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#103

Post by bratwurst3000 »

stinos wrote: post #87
Jun8 wrote: post #30

Same principle, reducing water activity (aw), is how Nutella keeps fresh for so long without refrigeration: its water activity is even lower than honey. Most bacteria need an aw of around 0.85 to thrive, Nutella’s aw is around 0.4, honey’s around 0.5-0.6. Peanut butter is 0.7, so it stays fresh for relatively long, too. Here’s the definition of water activity from FDA: https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enfor…

In the end drying grass to create hay is also the same principle: dry enough (say < 15% water) and it doesn't do much at all, being pretty dead. Higher and you get all kinds of life having its go at it.

i grow weed( legal here) and its the same. last two weeks moisture and temp down because of fungi. and when harvesting the goal is getting the humidity of the buds down to 12% fast. the difference is so obviuos. sometimes in the summer heat and humidity are out of controll and thats when buds rotten :/

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#104

Post by xandrius »

LandR wrote: post #65
tekla wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bloom isn't spoilage.

Is it eatable though ? ANytime I've had chocolate that has the white stuff I've binned it. Even if it isn't spoiled, doesn't it taste bad ?

White stuff is just either fat or sugar bloom, due to changes of temperature.

Not harmful. It's like the white "powder" on hard cheeses, which is just calcium crystalizing over time. Totally safe.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#105

Post by xandrius »

dylan604 wrote: post #7
mhb wrote: post #5

Similarly, chocolate.

You can take honey that has crystalized and set it in sunlight to "melt" back into the gooey goodness, but you can't do that to chocolate that has that white powdery stuff on it.

The white stuff is just fat or sugar blooming, so you can totally melt down chocolate and be good to go.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#106

Post by barrenko »

grues-dinner wrote: post #91
Jun8 wrote: post #30

Same principle, reducing water activity (aw), is how Nutella keeps fresh for so long without refrigeration: its water activity is even lower than honey. Most bacteria need an aw of around 0.85 to thrive, Nutella’s aw is around 0.4, honey’s around 0.5-0.6. Peanut butter is 0.7, so it stays fresh for relatively long, too. Here’s the definition of water activity from FDA: https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enfor…

This is something that I think about sometimes. Life on Earth has had billions of years and expanded to fill so many niches, but they're nearly all damp niches. Nothing has ever really managed to really thrive in deserts. Sure, there are a few cacti, succulents, a bit of scrub, a few palms and rodents and a few birds that eke out an existence. But really it's mostly barren, compared to temperate or tropical climates…

May be unrelated, but it's also kinda funny how to cut / process / shape stone and rock you need a crap load of water, all the drills and saws for stone are wet in a way.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#107

Post by n4r9 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #67

>> This doesn't mean that honey can withstand all challenges to freshness. Once a jar of honey is open, its surface is being regularly exposed to the air, and dipping licked spoons in will bring bacteria and moisture that weren't there when the jar was sealed. I have plenty of observational, empirical data that contradicts this apparently theoretical statement. Not just licked spoons but breakfast knives with bits of…

Likewise. For some reason the article ignores the raft of antibacterial compounds found in honey:

> Various components contribute to the antibacterial efficacy of honey: the sugar content; polyphenol compounds; hydrogen peroxide; 1,2-dicarbonyl compounds; and bee defensin-1. All of these elements are present at different concentrations depending on the source of nectar, bee type, and storage. These components work synergistically, allowing honey to be potent against a variety of microorganisms including multidrug resistant bacteria and modulate their resistance to antimicrobial agents.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8071826/

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#108

Post by computerphage »

bob1029 wrote: post #63
Jun8 wrote: post #30

Same principle, reducing water activity (aw), is how Nutella keeps fresh for so long without refrigeration: its water activity is even lower than honey. Most bacteria need an aw of around 0.85 to thrive, Nutella’s aw is around 0.4, honey’s around 0.5-0.6. Peanut butter is 0.7, so it stays fresh for relatively long, too. Here’s the definition of water activity from FDA: https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enfor…

Managing moisture levels is probably the #1 way to control microbial activity. You see the exact same idea in HVAC - if you can keep the relative humidity below 50%, mold growth becomes nearly impossible. In laundry care, the dryer does all of the sanitizing action. Etc.

Why is it relative humidity that matters here instead of absolute humidity?

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#109

Post by furyofantares »

wtvanhest wrote: post #40
loeg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/ > Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison). > ... In an…

I don’t think these probabilities are correct. Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times. In an extreme example… only 20 parents fed their kids honey and 20 kids contracted botulism. That would be a 100% risk. Obviously in real life it’s not 100% of kids, but still could be a meaningful percentage and likely higher than 1 in 50,000 for babies that eat honey.

> Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times.

Huh, I think this might be my first time hearing it.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#110

Post by felbane »

barrenko wrote: post #106
grues-dinner wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something that I think about sometimes. Life on Earth has had billions of years and expanded to fill so many niches, but they're nearly all damp niches. Nothing has ever really managed to really thrive in deserts. Sure, there are a few cacti, succulents, a bit of scrub, a few palms and rodents and a few birds that eke out an existence. But really it's mostly barren, compared to temperate or tropical climates…

May be unrelated, but it's also kinda funny how to cut / process / shape stone and rock you need a crap load of water, all the drills and saws for stone are wet in a way.

You can cut and shape rock with chisels. Isn't the water used primarily for dust control in powered stone drills/saws?
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