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Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

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Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#101

Post by aforwardslash »

tianqi wrote: post #45

I think the Chinese law is effective in this regard: in order to maintain any non-competition agreement, the company must continue to pay you a monthly compensation amount equal to 30% of your total monthly income when you were at the company. Whenever the payment stops, the non-competition agreement is automatically void.

In Portugal is generically the same - non-compete clauses require the payment of a monthly compensation for the duration of the non-compete clause; If non-compete clause exists, but no specific compensation is specified in the contract, the employee may demand the full salary during the specified period (I know at least one case).

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#102

Post by [deleted] »

mapmap wrote: post #56
TrackerFF wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that your advice is in good faith - but if we touch grass for a second, only the tiniest fraction of even professional workers have a lawyer at hand. And one that specializes in contract law? Even less.

It’s not that difficult to have legal help with your contract. Call your local bar association and ask for an employment law specialist. It will likely cost a couple hundred for them to review your contract.

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#103

Post by coderatlarge »

mystified5016 wrote: post #63
coderatlarge wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i personally consider bad legal clauses in employment contracts a seriously negative sign about the employer. if they’re trying to pull that sort of thing at hiring, what are they going to try to do later when you’re fully committed?? is executive leadership simply unaware or do they condone that sort of thing??

Well, yes. That's how we do business in the USA. It's literally unavoidable unless you can afford to spend a year or three declining offers until you find a unicorn with a sane contract. Approximately all businesses explictly try to exploit workers to the full extent of the law. That's what capitalism is and it's how we've structured our society.

social media shaming has worked in a few high profile companies like openai recently. especially when founders are still around and feel some personal culpability when their company’s values are on display.

but i think your broader societal point stands though. especially with horrible language in vendor contracts that people click through because who has time for that garbage. i hope llms will help people push back in somewhat more concerted and systematic fashion.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#104

Post by aforwardslash »

timoth3y wrote: post #71

Non-competes (including stealth non-competes like the OP mentioned) are being abused by US employers seeking leverage over their employees. In fact, 12% of hourly workers earning $20 or less had to sign non-competes. These workers do not have access to corporate secrets. It simply reduces their power to negotiate with their employer. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2021/non-compete-cont...

Not only in the US; without going into too much detail, many countries in south America and Africa have strong business connections with the US, and it is quite common to see the ever-abusive dumb dumb US contract templates being used in those countries, even when local law differs significantly. Usually, the posture is "we can do whatever you want and you keep your mouth shut, or else we'll sue you for everything". I loathe organizations with these kind of contracts.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#105

Post by luke5441 »

dakiol wrote: post #34

In some countries that's illegal. So when presented with a contract that contains such claims, I have 2 options: 1) ask them to remove it... and so I risk not getting the job 2) don't say anything, and sign it If I'm really interested in the job, I'll go for option 2 because I know they cannot enforce such claims, so I'll be fine.

Having probably signed such a contract, how do I find out if it is enforcable? Probably talk to a lawyer, but how do you find one that gives you a straight, but correct, answer to such a complex topic. For me it is even more complex since I'm a fake employee (contractor) in another country working for a US company.

The answer to those questions might be really unsatisfying in practice, since it breaks down to a cost calculation by the sueing company (if the company leadership is rational). So in case you get sued you have to fight defensively and bleed them enough so they give up or something.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#106

Post by taneq »

v5v3 wrote: post #97
tianqi wrote: post #45

I think the Chinese law is effective in this regard: in order to maintain any non-competition agreement, the company must continue to pay you a monthly compensation amount equal to 30% of your total monthly income when you were at the company. Whenever the payment stops, the non-competition agreement is automatically void.

That's a terrible law. 30% of your total monthly income as it was, when you are likely leaving for more money at a competitor or to start your own company...

So do it four times and retire.

Hmm… in four different industries, though… Yeah okay there might be some issues.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#107

Post by aforwardslash »

aforwardslash wrote: post #104
timoth3y wrote: post #71

Non-competes (including stealth non-competes like the OP mentioned) are being abused by US employers seeking leverage over their employees. In fact, 12% of hourly workers earning $20 or less had to sign non-competes. These workers do not have access to corporate secrets. It simply reduces their power to negotiate with their employer. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2021/non-compete-cont...

Not only in the US; without going into too much detail, many countries in south America and Africa have strong business connections with the US, and it is quite common to see the ever-abusive dumb dumb US contract templates being used in those countries, even when local law differs significantly. Usually, the posture is "we can do whatever you want and you keep your mouth shut, or else we'll sue you for everything".…

On a personal note, I once was presented with such a (US) contract that also required me to list every NDA I had signed to date; Since then, I always assume most US lawyers are beyond incompetent.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#108

Post by lazide »

ghaff wrote: post #80
duskwuff wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. And, at least in the US, any contract which makes it impossible for a worker to take a new job in their field is extremely likely to be found unconscionable. It doesn't matter whether the contract is cast as a non-compete or as a NDA; if its effect is to say "you must work for us, or not at all", it's unlikely to hold up.

Maybe. I've known companies in the IT industry that took a very hard line on non-competes. Whether they won in court, I don't know. But I've know people who took a year off rather than involving the lawyers. Small pretty well-defined segment of the industry and a couple of the big players apparently did take it seriously. (Never worked for either.)

Just because the employer ‘takes it seriously’ doesn’t mean the court won’t laugh at them.

In my experience, the more the employer puts up a show, the more unenforceable it is.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#109

Post by bobbruno »

aforwardslash wrote: post #104
timoth3y wrote: post #71

Non-competes (including stealth non-competes like the OP mentioned) are being abused by US employers seeking leverage over their employees. In fact, 12% of hourly workers earning $20 or less had to sign non-competes. These workers do not have access to corporate secrets. It simply reduces their power to negotiate with their employer. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2021/non-compete-cont...

Not only in the US; without going into too much detail, many countries in south America and Africa have strong business connections with the US, and it is quite common to see the ever-abusive dumb dumb US contract templates being used in those countries, even when local law differs significantly. Usually, the posture is "we can do whatever you want and you keep your mouth shut, or else we'll sue you for everything".…

If the law has specific clauses about this that the contract disrespects, these conditions are not worth the paper they are written on.

At least in Brazil you can't enforce something the law doesn't allow in a contract - that clause would be considered void without nullifying the contract. And Labour law in Brazil leans (or used to lean) more in favor of the employee,so yes, the law would win. Another aspect there is that unions are more common than in the US, and they will help in such cases.

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