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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#101

Post by lelanthran »

markus_zhang wrote: post #81

I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it's going to take years, but at least they don't have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I'd do it if that's what I want. P.S I don't have skin and skill for the kernel game. I'm just a curious bystander.

> I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own?

Because their primary goal is to widen the community and reach of Rust, with "preventing memory error class bugs in the kernel" a secondary objective.

After all, the Rust additions, if properly designed, can be maintained in an out-of-tree fork that tracks the main Linux repo. If they did that, there'd be no one to block their patches but themselves, and yet they don't do that.

Rust is more about community than Linux is. Within the Rust community they make it very clear that it is vital that everyone goes the same way, while the Linux community has had, for decades, people each doing what they or their employer are interested in.

These two communities are not going to mix well, TBH. A community in which every member is a vocal prosyletiser isn't going to mix well with a community which prides itself on "Show Me The Code".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#102

Post by pyrale »

Longhanks wrote: post #30
jeroenhd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's rather silly to have some subsystem maintainers do everything in their power to sabotage the improvement projects by subsystem and even high level maintainers in the kernel. It was a fine position to take back when introduction of Rust into the kernel was still very much a discussion point. However, the discussion is over, Rust has been accepted into the kernel. This entire struggle has been kernel devel…

> This infighting is only going to hurt the kernel in the long run. Every time this "discussion" comes up, I walk away with the feeling that Linux kernel developers are unreasonably hostile and impossible to work with. It makes me wonder why new people would ever bother trying to contribute anything. Well, this is your take, as you explicitly wrote "I walk away with the feeling". My take is: The kernel developers are…

> The kernel developers are the ones doing the actual work, which legitimates their opinion of doing things.

Both sides of the argument are kernel developers here, though.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#103

Post by markus_zhang »

pjmlp wrote: post #97
markus_zhang wrote: post #81

I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it's going to take years, but at least they don't have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I'd do it if that's what I want. P.S I don't have skin and skill for the kernel game. I'm just a curious bystander.

They have, https://www.redox-os.org/ https://tockos.org/ Also note that many of Rust 4 Linux contributors are Microsoft and Google employees that would like to upstream their changes, they already have plenty Rust on their own Linux derived systems.

That's good to hear. Thanks.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#104

Post by Philpax »

cataphract wrote: post #76
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

I'm tired of anaphoras. And he's not just abrasive He's a troublemaker. Seriously, code of conduct violation? It was perfectly clear what Hellwig meant by "cancer".

What is the interpretation of "cancer" in this context that isn't rude, offensive, or hostile to the R4L project?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#105

Post by starspangled »

threatofrain wrote: post #74
starspangled wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.

Yes, perhaps a C-only Linux would do that and die, and perhaps it would continue its customization of C flavor and runtime it uses (e.g., the various static and dynamic memory limitations and checkers) and closes the gap with Rust to a point where the incremental benefit of using it is not significant enough that it makes a Rust based competitor an inevitability. We may already be beyond that point, even.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#106

Post by HideousKojima »

Philpax wrote: post #98
busterarm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So moving to effectively censor criticism that you can't control is justified? Maybe the problem IS marcan, as Linus suggested. If you do things that are in the public interest, people are going to have opinions about what you do and on a wide spectrum. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be doing work that's so public and visible. Especially something like maintainer work that is inherently social.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#108

Post by busterarm »

Philpax wrote: post #98
busterarm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So moving to effectively censor criticism that you can't control is justified? Maybe the problem IS marcan, as Linus suggested. If you do things that are in the public interest, people are going to have opinions about what you do and on a wide spectrum. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be doing work that's so public and visible. Especially something like maintainer work that is inherently social.

[flagged]

I said opinions on a spectrum. Yes, an extreme end of that spectrum is an extreme response.

This is something you have to put up with some amount of if you do work in public, just like if you were a public figure or celebrity. Being a kernel or even package maintainer is like being a politician.

It sucks, but if your response is to cut off that channel of opinion _entirely_, that says more about you than the people you're silencing.

If something violates HN Guidelines, flag it and dang will see it. If there's anything that should be blatantly obvious by now it's that HN's moderation staff does not have the kind of alt-right bias suggested by your quote.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#109

Post by busterarm »

HideousKojima wrote: post #106
Philpax wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

It's extra weird to me that people try to live a very public life but then accuse anyone with the slightest amount of criticism of behaving criminally...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#110

Post by bakugo »

ziddoap wrote: post #66
bakugo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Starting to think it's not just a coincidence. Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust? What other options are there, if not coincidence?

> Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust?

Both, really. As a language that was designed from the ground up to be a replacement for C and C++ (thus implying that it's superior to these established languages), it positions itself as inherently "dramatic" and anti-establishment.

This obviously attracts these political activist types who love to insist that their way of thinking is the way forward, that everyone else was simply doing it wrong before they came along, and that anyone who questions their beliefs is an obvious enemy of progress who should be silenced at all costs. It's a cult, basically.

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