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43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

gothamist.com

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Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#101

Post by wongarsu »

vlovich123 wrote: post #56
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

You’re not incorrect per se, but it’s important to note that deliveries into downtown would be important for it to be a thriving destination for shopping, residential or business. Not to mention space for heavy equipment to come in to do repairs and construction. Minimal maintenance corridors may not be enough. You also need public transit options into it as well as transportation solutions for “out of towners” who d…

In any city that isn't hopelessly car-dependent there is some kind of rail to bring in commuters. A subway, tram, light rail, passenger rail, often a combination of all of them. Once you have a stable system to bring in commuters, adding a couple parking lots to stops on the outskirts for "out of towners" is pretty easy.

The rest is just about not removing all the streets. You also need enough roads for emergency vehicles. But simple two-lane roads for arteries and one-lane roads everywhere else are enough for deliveries, maintenance and (European-sized) emergency vehicles. All the other lanes are just there so everyone can travel downtown in their personal car instead of using more efficient transport options.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#102

Post by jerlam »

modeless wrote: post #77
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Roads are useful, but what I really think we should get rid of is parking lots. When cars can drive themselves we should build over all the lots and knock down the garages. The cars can spend the day on the road and the night parked outside the city. There should be zero parked inside the city.

If the cars can't park, then they're clogging up the roads and preventing them from being used as intended for transportation.

I am fine with parking lots as long as they're not publicly funded and are taxed just as every other parcel in the city. And on-street parking should be prohibited.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#103

Post by ETH_start »

Fewer drivers and less traffic can actually lead to more people being on the roads, because high-capacity vehicles like busses — which can efficiently pay the congestion pricing charges — are more usable when there is less traffic and faster commute times, so more people are likely to utilize them.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#104

Post by dymk »

nwiswell wrote: post #66
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

[flagged]

I wonder how Tokyo functions? I guess people just die waiting for an ambulance or in a fire.

See this part of the comment you’re replying to -

> Yes we need some roads, but cars driving in the heart of downtown as normal transit?

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#105

Post by ETH_start »

ventoffreshair wrote: post #64

[flagged]

Congestion pricing means less traffic so the bus can get to your destination faster. Right now there is no incentive to use the bus, so people don't. Everyone drives and everyone is worse off as a result of the greater traffic.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#106

Post by nine_k »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #51
nine_k wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of traffic deaths is far higher than of victims of any psychos.

You have Manhattan traffic death numbers?

Yes. They are basically zero: https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/traffic-data/traffic-fat...

Citywide car fatalities were like 12 / year.

Subway fatalities, from crime or otherwise, seem too rare to have actual stats; I found only one article saying about a fatal attack in March 2024, and none for prior years.

In general, crime on the subway seems rather low, though apparently growing: https://www.vitalcitynyc.org/articles/how-rare-is-crime-on-t...

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#107

Post by pclmulqdq »

jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Cities have had roads long before there were cars. So many people like to pretend that before "car culture" there were no roads in cities or that before cars there were no big roads. There were huge roads in cities in the 1800s to accommodate carriages, streetcars, and all the extra people on the road because a 5 minute trip by car takes 20 minutes on foot. Cities in 1000 AD had roads, and a lot of them were pretty damn wide. Ancient Rome was famous for building roads. Roads are not a waste of space. Roads are infrastructure.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#108

Post by gscott »

redandblack wrote: post #6
knowitnone wrote: post #3

[flagged]

this is totally true - subsidizing the rich by the poor I always thought congestion pricing was always mis-priced, and it should be tied to income/wealth. The only way to do this is to let the poor apply and get free electronic tokens and get that missing 43k back. fyi - my MD can easily manage a 10x the mid-town tolls

It will help Amazon and other delivery companies. Less competition from people driving their own cars to get things. California is working to put on a per-mile tax onto drivers because roads wear out faster then gas taxes, sales tax on autos, sales tax on auto repairs/parts, and registration taxes can be collected...

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#109

Post by pclmulqdq »

iambateman wrote: post #22

Some numbers don’t make sense here… They’re saying a 7% reduction is 43k cars, which infers 550k daily trips into the city. But they think they can make $500M/year. At $9 per trip, that’s only 150k tolls daily. (500M / 365 / $9). In any case, I’m glad it seems to be working. Congestion pricing has the potential to do a lot of good in this country.

$500M/year was the magical thinking that applies any time the NY government wants to create a tax. The revenue projected is always huge so they can spend big somewhere else while pretending to be revenue neutral. The soda tax had the same ridiculous overestimation.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#110

Post by ciabattabread »

etrautmann wrote: post #98
ciabattabread wrote: post #74

It was also really cold in NYC last week.

wouldn't that increase driving relative to other forms of transportation?

Cold encourages suburbanites to stay in their warm home instead of going on a night out.
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