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How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

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Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#101

Post by chris_wot »

spitx wrote: post #82
raverbashing wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please refrain from playing "know-it-all" every time someone writes an anecdote Also what is mentioned has been observed multiple times in several countries. "Anecdote is not data waa waa waa" or in your example, " No. They don’t die. Mick Jagger. Keith Richard" it certainly does not condone drug usage, but it certainly shows there are exception to "drugs are bad and you will die early" (especially given the amount c…

An informed observer would supplant his anecdote with a smidgen of studied data. My-grandfather-lived-to-be-99-and-hes-from-swine-country is spectacularly useless. Make an effort. Add detail. We are not demanding khi-square tests just some detail. Race, Geography, Family history, Rigor of vocation, Illnesses, Special abilities etc. No amount of detail will approach the rigor of a proper study. But make an effort.

How about you just point out that it the story is anecdotal? There's not any call for telling anyone to "please refrain" from their comments if they aren't abusive.

For the record, I'm not crash hot about this anonymous anecdotal evidence either. I think that eating unhealthily is bad no matter whether you are on a farm or not. But to tell someone to be quiet? That's a losing argument - refute it, don't silence anyone.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#102

Post by analog »

progrock wrote: post #76
scythe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed rather different things. The people I know who eat the most meat are the Crossfitters around me. They are, in almost all cases, healthy. I have a roommate who drinks fat-free milk and eats lots of salad and pasta, who avoids meat like the plague. He's been struggling with his weight for as long as I've known him. I drink coconut milk -- which contains nothing but fat -- and a meal usually consists of so…

I don't think I'd advocate the E plan diet as a healthy weightloss program! Coconut is another food that's been demonised. Supposedly it actually encourages weight loss - and is a super food. I only wish it were cheaper here in the UK.

Well Ecstasy as an alternative to alcohol might actually be good for your overall health. I seem to remember that epistemologically it's one of the safest of the recreational drugs; safer than alcohol, tobacco, speed etc.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#103

Post by duqee »

progrock wrote: post #85
latch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nothing else, we agree that processed foods are the real problem. Maybe people who eat fruits, vegetables and legumes are simply more likely to avoid eating processed foods. I will challenge you on your last point. You seriously see a lot of fat people eating fruits and soy?!

Fruit is so artificially selected that it's high in sugar, and probably not as healthy as people think - if not eaten in moderation. I eat mainly wholefoods. My vices are probably beer and the odd bag of white flour. I'm pretty much sedentary (sat most of the day in front of computer.) A little overweight. I haven't been to the doctors for over 10 years. That's not to say I haven't got a few ailments. I certainly don…

Fruit is high in natural sugars, like anything you put in your body over consumption of more than your body needs or can handle will be stored as a fat for later use. The body is good at converting the natural sugars in to glycogen for muscle fuel. The problem is people are not using as much muscle movement (desk jobs - i'm in the same boat during the day, but I make sure I exercise in the evenings)to use up the glycogen to replenish the muscle with the reserve fat stores.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#104

Post by adrianN »

Blara wrote: post #84
bitsoda wrote: post #61

How about we all just eat real food? Stay in the perimeter of the super market -- with the exception of some canned fish -- and you should be okay. You can't go wrong with fruit, vegetables, meat, seafood, tubers, nuts, and seeds. As for wheat...come on, don't kid yourself. A refined white powder that is highly processed is not real food. Drink water, exercise a few times a week, and get some sun. If nothing else, li…

I do believe you can get fat even if you eat only "real food", the trick is to eat in moderation. If you eat more calories than you use up you will gain weight. It really is that easy. You could loose weight eating pastries only, just as long as you don't eat too much. It wouldn't be healthy though...

It's really hard to eat too many calories if they come in the form of vegetables. Caloric density is important. So are additives like MSG that mess up your sense of satiation.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#105

Post by Shivetya »

bad_user wrote: post #65
latch wrote: post #36

While it's really interesting to debate whether you should eat potatoes or beef, the real battle for the western world is that we stop eating processed foods. Wheat vs eggs seems like a silly debate when people are living off of Coke, Oreos and Capt'N Crunch. Whenever I hear these arguments, I feel like these scientists aren't living in the same world as me. "Eggs are ok, declare scientists" reads the headline while…

Since we are talking anecdotes and make-beliefs, I'll add what I saw with my own two eyes ... My grandfather was eating between 5 and 10 eggs per day, every day. He also drank at least 1 liter of home-made red whine per day, while being a big consumer of dairy products (also made in-house). Of course, because my grandparents lived on a farm and consumed what they produced or traded with neighbors, half of a normal we…

Look towards your grandfather's daily activities and not just his diet. My grandparents too lived to a ripe old age eating foods that make so called experts cringe. The real difference between them and our generation was that they never led a sedentary lifestyle.

Sometimes I believe the office style of work that many celebrate; because it freed them from the fields and such; probably is the least beneficial change we have made.

We are not designed to be idle.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#106

Post by nzjames »

progrock wrote: post #86
rubashov wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Fat white people in desk jobs eat handfuls of soy loaded trail mix in the afternoon, and an apple an hour before lunch. It's SWPL emotional eating.

There's a lot of talk of soy here on this thread. Is this a US thing? What soy are you eating? It's not that big in the UK. You can get soy milk and it's mixed in with some meat products and found in veggie burgers - but it's not that mainstream. I buy frozen 'fresh' soybeans, which are quite hard to find. They're nice.

Check the ingredients on anything that you think is mostly wheat. It will have soy in it. All bread from the super market for example.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#107

Post by drostie »

geon wrote: post #94
spitx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please refrain from making these anecdotal observations. Your observation is the equivalent of this from the movie "Get Him To The Greek": "British mother fu##ers don’t die. You ever heard of a British rock and roll star dying? No. They don’t die. Mick Jagger. Keith Richard. Those Led Zeppelin. Themmotherfu##ers old as fuck! Fu##ing Ozzy Osbourne is gonna outlive Miley Cyrus"

Every observation is anecdotal until there are a lot of them.

Just... no. You're presenting "anecdotal" as if to contrast it with something like "established pattern." But "anecdotal" just means that something is a remembered story, nothing else.

So, there is something which we do called "observation." This is when we want to know the truth of something, so we set up some sort of meaningful experiment which we can do in the world, and find out. We go out and observe.

The reason that an anecdote is not an observation is because it comes to you first. That is, you already know the result of the anecdote before you select the data; it is something you "remember" when you hear about a new situation. This invokes all kinds of biases about how you remember, because you tend to remember anomalies -- and you tend to misremember their content. In anecdotes there is no "control group" and there isn't even a hope for a control; it's all been selected out anyway.

In this respect a single observation is not anecdotal, because they come from separate places. If a doctor puts a flow-meter in an artery after a bypass surgery to see if there is blood flowing at a normal cardiac rate, that is not an "anecdote", that is an "observation." It is not based on some sort of human reckoning; "I've done many bypass surgeries and I once saw an artery which looked just like that and was not, in fact, obstructed," but rather it's something reliable: at this time, a normal amount of blood was flowing through this artery.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#108

Post by jqueryin »

geon wrote: post #92
scythe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed rather different things. The people I know who eat the most meat are the Crossfitters around me. They are, in almost all cases, healthy. I have a roommate who drinks fat-free milk and eats lots of salad and pasta, who avoids meat like the plague. He's been struggling with his weight for as long as I've known him. I drink coconut milk -- which contains nothing but fat -- and a meal usually consists of so…

So, because your body doesn't have the tendency to put on weight, you eat what you like. Your friends who tend to get fat easily watch what the y eat, but it's not helping them that much. This really sounds to me like there are great differences in metabolism person to person. I have always been skinny, and I eat a lot of whatever. I don't exercise much. I know people who are "big", but eat less than I do.

Unfortunately skinny does not imply healthy. I am also skinny with high metabolism, but that doesn't mean it's okay to eat whatever you want and forego exercise as your internals could be like those of a much older individual (heart, lungs, etc).

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#109

Post by [deleted] »

analog wrote: post #79
scythe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed rather different things. The people I know who eat the most meat are the Crossfitters around me. They are, in almost all cases, healthy. I have a roommate who drinks fat-free milk and eats lots of salad and pasta, who avoids meat like the plague. He's been struggling with his weight for as long as I've known him. I drink coconut milk -- which contains nothing but fat -- and a meal usually consists of so…

...healthiest potato chips on the shelf... ...bread, there is soybean oil mayonnaise... All of these are fairly high calorie foods, even if you buy them in a health food shop. You'd need to have a fast metabolism and be pretty active to get through all these. If you eat more calories than you burn you will put on fat.

[deleted]

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#110

Post by BSousa »

geon wrote: post #92
scythe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed rather different things. The people I know who eat the most meat are the Crossfitters around me. They are, in almost all cases, healthy. I have a roommate who drinks fat-free milk and eats lots of salad and pasta, who avoids meat like the plague. He's been struggling with his weight for as long as I've known him. I drink coconut milk -- which contains nothing but fat -- and a meal usually consists of so…

So, because your body doesn't have the tendency to put on weight, you eat what you like. Your friends who tend to get fat easily watch what the y eat, but it's not helping them that much. This really sounds to me like there are great differences in metabolism person to person. I have always been skinny, and I eat a lot of whatever. I don't exercise much. I know people who are "big", but eat less than I do.

People don't have that much difference in metabolisms (unless we are talking about actual health problems or differences between severe overweight and athletes). What happens is most people don't know what they are eating.

BBC did a documentary where two friends, one skinny and one fat, swore the difference was due to metabolism, that the skinny one ate a lot and the fat one didn't. They tested it and found out that the fat one used more calories than the thin one, but also took a lot more calories per day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTr1JUvEiUU

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