Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation • Hacker News Board

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#101

Post by toss1 » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:06 PM UTC

bryant wrote: post #18

gumby wrote: post #10

If homeopathy "theory" says that the water retains an "imprint" of other chemicals it encountered, clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves. I briefly considered selling a device that would "reverse" those consequences so the water from your tap would be homeopathically neutralized. But it just seemed uneth…

You could probably still do it. It'd just have to be a distillation system that's not explicitly branded as a countertop water distiller but still describes its function and effects as such. You see plenty of examples of this on the market already as-is in different sectors. A part for a Ford GT could cost 500 bucks where the same part for a Ford Fiesta could cost 50.

Good point but not such a great great exsmple of spurious cost differences. The Ford GT is a top race-spec car putting out 660 horsepower and capable of speeds around 220 mph, while the econocar Fiesta tops out at 112 HP and would be lucky to see 100mph with a tailwind.

Unless the part is something like a window-opener switch, yoi WANT that part to have all the extra engineering, higher spec materials, tighter-tolerance machining, and higher-level finishing that goes into making a high-performance machine actually perform at such high levels.

Moreover, even if the parts weren't fundamentally different despite occupying similar roles in the car, the mere difference in volume of production will dictate a far higher cost for the "same" part in a car made only in quantities of only a few hundred per year vs thousands per month ...

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#102

Post by CoastalCoder » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:07 PM UTC

GenerocUsername wrote: post #45

pizza234 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's interesting - based on your description, the medication you took is not homeopathic: > Homeopathic preparations are termed remedies and are made using homeopathic dilution. In this process, the selected substance is repeatedly diluted until the final product is chemically indistinguishable from the diluent. If in a preparation there is a measurable quantity of the active ingredient, then it's not an homeop…

That's not the entirety of homeopathy, just the most commonly shat on ridiculous homeopathic practice

> That's not the entirety of homeopathy, just the most commonly shat on ridiculous homeopathic practice

Uugh. It's really hard to productively discuss a topic when people have different definitions for the terms being used.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#103

Post by whamlastxmas » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:16 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #65

borbtactics wrote: post #17

I still don't understand why these can be sold in American pharmacies.

People want to buy them and we live in a free country.

Unless we want to make people accountable for running their own sophisticated clinical studies for every single product we buy, we should probably have some rules in place around false claims and false advertising.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#104

Post by whamlastxmas » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:18 PM UTC

blincoln wrote: post #98

blendergeek wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice is over the counter cold medicine vs homeopathic "remedies". Neither of these cure diseases. Neither of these prevent the seeking of medical care. Both of them may make people feel better (the placebo effect can be powerful). Only one of these is frequently abused by teenagers as a recreational drug.

There are plenty of people who take homeopathic and other alternative products instead of prescription products because they can't afford the prescription products, and fraudulent advertising makes them think the alternative is more or less equivalent. I actually had someone at a pet store try to sell me homeopathic medication instead of dewormer because they were out of actual dewormer. Do you think that's harmless…

Your appendix is about to burst, the surgeon is busy, but do some yoga near this crystal and it’ll clear right up

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#105

Post by Apreche » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:19 PM UTC

borbtactics wrote: post #17

I still don't understand why these can be sold in American pharmacies.

They couldn’t. But then a law called the DSHEA was passed that changed all the rules.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#106

Post by BrandoElFollito » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:25 PM UTC

CoastalCoder wrote: post #95

gumby wrote: post #10

If homeopathy "theory" says that the water retains an "imprint" of other chemicals it encountered, clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves. I briefly considered selling a device that would "reverse" those consequences so the water from your tap would be homeopathically neutralized. But it just seemed uneth…

> It's bad enough there are people selling ... bibles I'd like to suggest that starting a thread based on "${specific_religion} is false" won't go well on HN. Or was your point more about the selling of them? Sorry if I misunderstood.

To the point of OP, this is the same kind of belief, just older.

One believes in /something/ when there is no scientific evidence for it - against all odds.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#107

Post by NewEntryHN » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #77

TheRoque wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France they were funded by the social security up to 15%, but luckily this stopped in 2021. I had some as a kid and my mom is still a strong "believer" in them. I don't see any harm in selling them IF and only if they don't prevent people from taking other "real" treatments. But other than this it's just placebo.

> and only if they don't prevent people from taking other "real" treatments This is the dominant harm, yeah. As we know from infosec, few things are more dangerous than a false sense of security, and that's exactly what ineffective drugs provide.

Most of homeopathy usages target little aches and whatnots that require no treatment (beyond patience), so I guess it could also act as a buffer against overmedication.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#108

Post by quitit » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:40 PM UTC

pixelpoet wrote: post #2

I wish more German doctors would acknowledge what utter quackery homeopathy is. Three separate doctors wanted to prescribe me homeopathy stuff last year, ended up not getting any help at all.

Discussions I have with doctors and pharmacists about this situation are generally unproductive. There is this pervasive resistance to change and deep ties to traditional approaches.

A large chunk of the problem is that many common self-selection and over-the-counter medications are only by a doctor's prescription in German speaking countries.

Low risk medications, which in other countries a consumer can safely select and administer, are only available over-the-counter at pharmacies, other low risk medications require a script - examples of these include basic pain medication(OTC), NSAIDs(RX), PPIs(RX), skin treatments(OTC), anti-fungals(RX), anti-biotic drops(RX). Pharmacies also generally have short hours on Saturday, and are not open on Sundays.

Combining these factors leads to people seeking out a "solution", and those "solutions" are either homeopathic or merely just alcohol, since neither require a health care professional's assistance. There is also no shortage of homeopathic stores that promise therapeutic benefits, such as addressing fertility issues and chronic pain. Regulators regulate medicine, so non-medicines often fly under the radar, even when they're promoting medical therapies.

There's so many ways that this system fails in comparison to modern approaches:

Should a woman not have a sufficient stock of pain killers on a sunday during period cramps, her options would be to either beg a neighbour, or got to the emergency department of a hospital. In other countries, she could simply visit a supermarket or convenience store.

Children with head lice can't receive a treatment without a doctor's prescription, but there's no shortage of proven ineffective products stocking pharmacy shelves, hoping that some desperate parent will buy it just to see if it works.

A person with conjunctivitis needs to first visit a doctor, potentially waiting hours just to get the script, then hope that the pharmacy is still open. (Doctor's offices are frequently bogged down with people visiting for minor ailments because they can't get basic medications without it.)

In the realm of sexual health: While other countries have dispensing sexual health clinics with easy access to treatments and prophylactic medications, those afflicted in Germany and similar are often needlessly waiting, or worse simply spreading disease. With some medications and inoculations only available via a hospital appointment.

Overall it breeds distrust in the medical system and promotes unhealthy, worthless, scammy "alternatives".

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#109

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:41 PM UTC

vog wrote: post #90

rafaelmn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on their own", buying no medication at all would be even cheaper. But placebos actually outperform no intervention.

Okay, fair point. But then, why prescribe the most expensive placebos where you co-finance societal harmful behavior, rather than just prescribing the "harmless" placebos that are not homeopathy, which are usually even cheaper and don't have any ideological overhead?

I'm not aware of any research along these lines, but I suspect that all placebos are not equally effective.

It's a psychological effect, so things like price or flavor or packaging likely affect its strength.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#110

Post by Dwedit » Fri, Jul 05, 2024, 10:45 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #91

vog wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I hear this argumentation a lot, I still struggle with this: If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on their own", buying no medication at all would be even cheaper. And from an ethical point of view, the idea of financing a whole (homeopathic) industry that uses your money to produce fake science, even with a single cent, should make one shudder, shouldn't it?

There is a lot of over-the-counter and even some prescription medicine that don't do much at all for what people take them for, and homeopathy is cheaper and less harmful for the same placebo effect. Cold medicine in particular is known for its dubious efficiency. No medication is even cheaper, but the placebo effect works, so if people were to take something, might as well have them take something cheap and harmless…

Here we have an article that claims that even when people are told they are getting a placebo, they still felt better after taking it.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-kn...