You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do • Hacker News Board

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#101

Post by jyou » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:05 PM UTC

mopoke wrote: post #43

parfe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do we do such a bad job of developing people who are good managers/leaders AND understand technology? From my experience I think the issue stems for looking at management as the next rung on a ladder. A good developer might never gain or want the experience needed to make her a good manager. A manager might never learn what it takes to be a developer. But the idea of moving up to management ignores the real issu…

But there's no reason a good developer can't be a good manager. They may not have the skills in their current role, but everyone should be able to acquire those skills. I see no problem with developers becoming managers in theory. But something goes wrong in that transition. Management skills are just like learning any other skill. Skill-learning is something that developers (or the good ones) typically excel at. So…

"But there's no reason a good developer can't be a good manager"

This is very wrong. They required very different skills and personality. Promoting a good developer to management role may hurt the developer himself and eventually destroyed the project/team. My personal experience though.

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#102

Post by dpritchett » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:16 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #93

MicahWedemeyer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynic would say: Why were you working on a mundane problem? That's for some other nameless jr. dev to fix while you focus on the high-profile-yet-easy stuff.

True, maybe instead of working I should start producing weekly "website ROI & Key Performance Indicators Executive Report" and Email it to everyone. All I would actually have to do is dump some google analytics screen shots into a word document..

If you automate that process - maybe spit the screenshots into weekly emails or a dashboard - and people start working specifically to improve those numbers then you just might have a greater aggregate impact on revenues than the 1/size_of_your_team you presumably have now [1].

[1] http://algeri-wong.com/yishan/engineering-management-tools-a...

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#103

Post by nyellin » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:23 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #52

patio11 wrote: post #49

I wish I had written this. If the humor/cynicism gets to you please power through and look at the actionable tips which will earn you more money . There is approximately no-one on HN, not even at the best managed firms with the least BS imaginable, who would not experience positive ROI from "Congrats guys, we just shipped X, let's have a celebratory dinner at $FAVORITE and I'm buying." That idea is freaking genius .…

Come on, seriously. A team of 20 ships a product and some junior engineer buys everybody a dinner out, incl all the bosses and their bosses? Yeah, OK, that's one way of making all your peers feel really awkward and uncomfortable. And wondering what the little suckup is up to.

That is a detail needing cultural adjustment, but the concept is universal.

For example, here in Israel most high-tech jobs include ZeroCater-esque food plans, so (without significant spending) buying food for your team would probably result in a worse meal for everyone. However, buying your team snacks and drinks on special events was standard practice at my last job.

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#104

Post by paulhauggis » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:24 PM UTC

mokus wrote: post #36

If "your boss has no idea if you’re good at your job," then he is not good at his.

my boss, the owner of the company, had me explain my job to him at least 3 times during my time there. He was the one that hired me and still didn't know exactly what I did.

It was extremely frustrating when he asking me to do graphic design work and he didn't understand why it wasn't part of my job (I was hired as a developer, I wrote their entire e-commerce system which ran their business for 4 years).

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#105

Post by onemoreact » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC

tatsuke95 wrote: post #78

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not. This is the reason big conglomerates should be split with an axe and left to the vultures. They are super inefficient because they have incompetents in place that can't measure the real value created by their workers but also because as a company grows bigger and bigger you forget who is your customer and start playing the Soviet Russia central planning trick of "looking like you work is more important…

Big companies are incredibly efficient at generating wealth. Look around you. > They then use tricks and more tricks to hide the reality(GM or Enron) so the party continues one more day. You cherry pick two large companies, only one of which can actually be considered a failure (if you think GM has been a failure, I don't know what to tell you). You don't think fraud goes on on a massive scale at the small business l…

The fortune 500 list is a moving target with plenty of large scale failures on a regular basis. Compare Profits from these lists:

1995: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500_archive/fu...

2000: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500_archive/fu...

2005: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500_archive/fu...

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#106

Post by william42 » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:36 PM UTC

tatsuke95 wrote: post #78

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not. This is the reason big conglomerates should be split with an axe and left to the vultures. They are super inefficient because they have incompetents in place that can't measure the real value created by their workers but also because as a company grows bigger and bigger you forget who is your customer and start playing the Soviet Russia central planning trick of "looking like you work is more important…

Big companies are incredibly efficient at generating wealth. Look around you. > They then use tricks and more tricks to hide the reality(GM or Enron) so the party continues one more day. You cherry pick two large companies, only one of which can actually be considered a failure (if you think GM has been a failure, I don't know what to tell you). You don't think fraud goes on on a massive scale at the small business l…

GM was at least on the verge of bankruptcy a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure that can be attributed more to massively underestimating how much healthcare would cost in 2008 during a union negotiation several decades prior than to any sort of dirty tricks.

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#107

Post by lani » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 3:50 PM UTC

ttt_ wrote: post #76

I hope this is some kind of joke that I just didn't get, but otherwise: This is just a guide for you to be hipocritical and a complete jackass to your coworkers while throwing out any values you have out the window. That's the kind of atitude that ruins the workplace for everyone, congrats on getting more money and also an even shittier job than before. I know plenty of people that are willing to act like this in ord…

err.. the visibility thing's all too real. just happened to me last week. project is nine months old. was an orphan until 1 month ago manager(s) 2 levels up asked about it. now ? daily updates. and i work at a well known co.

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#108

Post by GFischer » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

mopoke wrote: post #43

parfe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do we do such a bad job of developing people who are good managers/leaders AND understand technology? From my experience I think the issue stems for looking at management as the next rung on a ladder. A good developer might never gain or want the experience needed to make her a good manager. A manager might never learn what it takes to be a developer. But the idea of moving up to management ignores the real issu…

But there's no reason a good developer can't be a good manager. They may not have the skills in their current role, but everyone should be able to acquire those skills. I see no problem with developers becoming managers in theory. But something goes wrong in that transition. Management skills are just like learning any other skill. Skill-learning is something that developers (or the good ones) typically excel at. So…

I'm a middle-of-the-pack developer that is trying to become a manager.

My first step was taking up managing courses, and an MBA adapted for technology (MMOT).

I believe I've learned a lot of management skills and that they will help me when I make the jump, but I also agree with crasshopper that "empathy, listening, communicating clearly/fairly, inspiring people, making people feel valued" and other "soft/people" skills are skills you don't learn either as a developer or in management school.

So, my answer would be: developers can absolutely learn management skills, but some of them aren't taught in classes.

That also makes it harder to break into management (haven't succeeded yet, employers want people with experience, over qualifications)

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#109

Post by drucken » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:04 PM UTC

itmag wrote: post #58

I found this article very enlightening, in an odd way. I've committed several of the errors mentioned in it (out of blithe naiveté, I might add). Very interesting take on Machiavellian job hacking, this. Personally, I would rather be myself always. Even if I could speed up my career by X% using methods like this, it would still take years upon years to get where I want to be, and by that time my soul would be a burnt…

I would agree with every word you said, except failure rates on startups are very high (much higher than 50%).

So, there is already a large opportunity cost due to the flat time and effort invested plus loss of corporate experience which has the many significant side effects such as skill, social/business contact and guaranteed compensation accrual.

Re: You're crap and paid too much for the little work you actually do

#110

Post by paulhauggis » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:20 PM UTC

mopoke wrote: post #43

parfe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do we do such a bad job of developing people who are good managers/leaders AND understand technology? From my experience I think the issue stems for looking at management as the next rung on a ladder. A good developer might never gain or want the experience needed to make her a good manager. A manager might never learn what it takes to be a developer. But the idea of moving up to management ignores the real issu…

But there's no reason a good developer can't be a good manager. They may not have the skills in their current role, but everyone should be able to acquire those skills. I see no problem with developers becoming managers in theory. But something goes wrong in that transition. Management skills are just like learning any other skill. Skill-learning is something that developers (or the good ones) typically excel at. So…

"So why can't developers learn management skills?"

Many developers aren't good with people. It's the reason they got into development in the first place. Personally, I spent my teenage years in front of a computer 99% of the time.

I'm now in my 30s and it took me years to acquire good people skills. I could be a manager, but I'm running my own company instead, which utilizes all of my skills.