Uh, what the hell?
Nothing would please Jeff bozos more then being able to declare anyone trying to form a union insane and lock them away.
Time to bring back asylums?
101–110 of 397 posts
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't deny that homelessness is a problem, please re-read my comment. Perhaps I've been "screaming the tune" for a decade but in that time the cost of housing has gone up dramatically. In 2009 I rented a 2-br apartment in Capitol Hill for $1,600 -- parking included. In 2019 I rented a studio apartment in the same neighborhood for the same -- parking not included. I can produce examples like this all day. My point…
Homelessness is a huge problem that needs additional resources. Most of it isn't really visible. And then there's the huge sub-problem of people who are chronically homeless, drug-addicted, and visible. Large efforts at simply improving access to housing are likely to make a large dent in the larger homelessness problem, but may not be effective in addressing people with long-standing drug addiction and behavioral di…
Replying so you don't feel left out -- I hadn't because I don't feel there's much left to add.
I agree with you. There is more than one piece to the puzzle. We seem to agree that housing is one of the bigger pieces, though. So let's start there and make some progress for a change. Let's not throw our hands up, like some in this thread, and say we've exhausted this approach and it's time for the stick.
For the rest, we'll have to go case-by-case. For the most recalcitrant, anti-social cases we may need the stick in the end. Hopefully by that point we can say the system isn't pathological. Regardless, I suspect the cases on that end of the spectrum will be less "homeless" and more "criminal."
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#103For anyone who wants to bring back asylums: first and foremost, you must imagine that you will be subjected to asylums as they existed. You could simply be protesting while black or female, considered insane for protesting and forcibly detained-- for which you can be raped and assaulted, and any reporting to the police of your trauma isn't taken seriously because you're considered insane. It's nonsensical to say we s…
> you must imagine that you will be subjected to asylums as they existed. No you don't. Nobody is advocating for that. Nobody is saying we should follow the same broken standards that led to locking up people for protesting, or that we should allow abuse and rape. Do you not think there is any middle ground between raping protestors and letting people with violent schizophrenia live in a tent on the street?
If they can be used as a punishment, they WILL be used as a punishment.
Not too long ago, BDSM was considered a mental illness. We'not talking the 1960s either.. this was 2010 when the DSM-4 had BDSM and similar removed.
Prior to 1980, homosexuality was also in the DSM-4.
The trend is obvious and troublesome: this is mainly a list of consensual actions that were listed as "mental health problems" and therefore could be treated against the will of the person. And it's easier to dismiss a 'sick' person since they're obviously out of their mind.
So yes, this is something you definitely will have if the asylum system is recreated and/or reformed. Person making different lifestyle choices others don't like? Committed, with no real say or due process.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#104For anyone who wants to bring back asylums: first and foremost, you must imagine that you will be subjected to asylums as they existed. You could simply be protesting while black or female, considered insane for protesting and forcibly detained-- for which you can be raped and assaulted, and any reporting to the police of your trauma isn't taken seriously because you're considered insane. It's nonsensical to say we s…
> you must imagine that you will be subjected to asylums as they existed. No you don't. Nobody is advocating for that. Nobody is saying we should follow the same broken standards that led to locking up people for protesting, or that we should allow abuse and rape. Do you not think there is any middle ground between raping protestors and letting people with violent schizophrenia live in a tent on the street?
> Do you not think there is any middle ground between raping protestors and letting people with violent schizophrenia live in a tent on the street?
I think we all do see such a middle ground, but think that it's really difficult to hit from a due process point of view. This is a parallel track, from the criminal justice system, to take away peoples' autonomy and rights to choose what happens to their bodies.
E.g. maybe we should be focusing on putting real treatment in jails (which tends to be pretty barbaric and ineffective at this point) and using the normal criminal justice system.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#105https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_N...
Mentioned in the article.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you must imagine that you will be subjected to asylums as they existed. No you don't. Nobody is advocating for that. Nobody is saying we should follow the same broken standards that led to locking up people for protesting, or that we should allow abuse and rape. Do you not think there is any middle ground between raping protestors and letting people with violent schizophrenia live in a tent on the street?
If they can be used as a punishment, they WILL be used as a punishment. Not too long ago, BDSM was considered a mental illness. We'not talking the 1960s either.. this was 2010 when the DSM-4 had BDSM and similar removed. Prior to 1980, homosexuality was also in the DSM-4. The trend is obvious and troublesome: this is mainly a list of consensual actions that were listed as "mental health problems" and therefore could…
Do you think they're suddenly going to put homosexuality and BDSM back in the DSM-4 and lock people up for it? I mean, you look at the current political climate and you believe that is a thing that could actually happen when the White House is hosting a Pride parade?
There are real people getting assaulted and murdered by the mentally ill right now. Not to mention the mentally ill themselves who are subject to violence on the streets and living in squalor. These are actual problems that are really happening and you're saying we shouldn't do anything to address them because of hypothetical problems you that you think might happen and that we could easily be aware of and prevent?
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Homeless shelters still exist too. It's not about what to call it, it's about whether people are forced to be there.
If homeless shelters are shitholes, neglected, understaffed, with indifferent and uncaring (or abusing) personnel, with no boundaries between the inmates, so that dangerous and unstable people make it hell for the more well adjusted homeless people living there without recourse, then many or most homeless are not going to want to stay there.
And if you have strong boundaries and rules, there's a subpopulation that won't be allowed to stay there.
(Most places have something in-between: policies that exclude a fair number of homeless but still leave enough behavioral issues to produce dangerous and unpleasant places).
Of course, resourcing is part of the problem, but it also just can't be one-size fits all.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#108Asylums still exist. What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. A typical case from this time[1]: > [Cramer] frankly discusses the “regimented, often hopeless conditions of state mental hospitals”, talks about a hospital in Alabama where “care was worse than simply inadequate: one psychiatrist for 5000 patients; astonishingly low funding…
The main concern these days is with people with specific mental illnesses or addictions that make them unable to comply with treatment. Schizophrenia and severe bipolar disorder are some of the more obvious ones. One can argue that there's a human right to be insane, but most of us would prefer not to be pushed in front of an oncoming subway train. People with a good support network might find it easier to comply wit…
> One can argue that there's a human right to be insane, but most of us would prefer not to be pushed in front of an oncoming subway train.
This is a bit of a flawed argument-- it's not clear that people with severe mental illness are more violent than the general population, and if they are, it's not by a huge margin.
It's also flawed because we already can forcibly hospitalize people who we can prove are a danger to others. (Yes, I'm aware a whole lot slip through the cracks, but this is a resources and administrative capacity issue, not an issue of the laws we're operating under).
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#109This article doesn’t mention what other countries do about this problem. As far as I know, the UK has a series of “sections” that allow voluntary and involuntary commitment. Do these “work”? Can anyone with some background knowledge of this or another country’s system weigh in?
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or make healthcare accessible. Make housing accessible. Make food accessible. We can house feed and care for every person on the planet but we don’t because money. A made up concept that has no actual value outside of what we place on it. It’s arbitrary, as much as markets would want us to believe otherwise. As a species we choose to let them have that power, and with it they will kill us all (seriously)
As long as resources are limited there will be money or an equivalent mechanism for valuing and controlling those resources. Resources can be anything from land, food, knowledge, political power, etc.
We are not short of housing or food. Artificial and market scarcity don’t make it so.