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Time to bring back asylums?

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Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#41

Post by aschearer »

remarkEon wrote: post #37
aschearer wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't deny that homelessness is a problem, please re-read my comment. Perhaps I've been "screaming the tune" for a decade but in that time the cost of housing has gone up dramatically. In 2009 I rented a 2-br apartment in Capitol Hill for $1,600 -- parking included. In 2019 I rented a studio apartment in the same neighborhood for the same -- parking not included. I can produce examples like this all day. My point…

We’re clearly not talking about the same problem. There isn’t a direct line from you not being able to find the same square footage for $1600 in 2019 as you did in 2009, and you winding up as a hopeless drug addict in Cal Anderson. I’m all for draconian policies to address rising housing costs (such a extreme excise taxes on vacant units, of which there are a lot in Seattle and Portland), but that doesn’t have anythi…

I've advanced the position that 1) we should agree to tackle the root cause of the problem primarily but not exclusively and 2) we should identify and agree on what the root cause is. I'm not clear if you agree with the above.

I've explained what I believe to be the root of the problem. You have not. I've explained some ways we might ameliorate the problem. You have not.

It's difficult to have a conversation when the interlocutor won't state their positions and take a stand. Even more so when they accuse you of "screaming" and acting in "bad faith."

I'm left to infer what you're thinking. I imagine it's that inequality is not linked to the rise in homelessness. (I disagree.) That people are more susceptible to drug addiction than before. (I'm very skeptical.) And that if we punish people more forcefully the problem will be resolved. (I doubt it, but that's not to say we can't protect our public spaces more vigerously.)

If I pegged you wrong, I apologize and look forward to being corrected. If not, then let's agree to disagree.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#43

Post by amadeuspagel »

iancmceachern wrote: post #39
amadeuspagel wrote: post #11

Asylums still exist. What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. A typical case from this time[1]: > [Cramer] frankly discusses the “regimented, often hopeless conditions of state mental hospitals”, talks about a hospital in Alabama where “care was worse than simply inadequate: one psychiatrist for 5000 patients; astonishingly low funding…

Not really at all. In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. We need a way to pay the people that do the work, buy the buildings, keep the lights on. We call this infrastructure asylums, whatever you want to call it we need it desperately. If you want to stop things like what you cited from happening, lobb…

Homeless shelters still exist too.

It's not about what to call it, it's about whether people are forced to be there.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#46

Post by michaelmrose »

iancmceachern wrote: post #38

I've had this conversation with many friends. Totally agree. They need to be good, well run with compassion and care of course. But we indeed need them.

What if most of the people you wish were interred there are competent enough to decide they don't want to be there but not competent enough to meaningfully integrate with society. This can even be true of some who definitely not competent now but would become sufficiently lucid to disinter themselves before discontinuing medication and resuming drinking and drugging.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#47

Post by wolverine876 »

aschearer wrote: post #25

[flagged]

The rhetorical tactic keeps winning. It works so well that, even though they've been doing in much of the rich world (Murdoch in the English-speaking portion) for decades, you still can't even describe the tactic and don't know why they use it.

Why would they stop unless they start losing with it?

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#49

Post by wolverine876 »

_8j50 wrote: post #8

A person does not belong to society or to the government. Sane or not, a person who chooses to not get mental, physical or preventive treatment (like vaccines) or other social manadates should not be compelled because humans lack the authority to do so. What should happen is they should be expelled from society. Expulsion was very common in historical societies. The famous version of this is leper colonies. The land…

I think you should be expelled from society for promulgating yet another sensationalist, inflammatory, absurd Internet theory. Why not? Who gets to say who is expelled?

That's why we have human rights - people are free to do what they want, without giving a f- if you like it or not. You are free to do what you want without giving a f- if I like it or not. Yes, there are limits where we harm others.

Let's be honest: People just don't like other people who lack housing and look dirty; people are scared of what's different; the rest is mostly rationalization for oppression.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#50

Post by vba616 »

iancmceachern wrote: post #39
amadeuspagel wrote: post #11

Asylums still exist. What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. A typical case from this time[1]: > [Cramer] frankly discusses the “regimented, often hopeless conditions of state mental hospitals”, talks about a hospital in Alabama where “care was worse than simply inadequate: one psychiatrist for 5000 patients; astonishingly low funding…

Not really at all. In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. We need a way to pay the people that do the work, buy the buildings, keep the lights on. We call this infrastructure asylums, whatever you want to call it we need it desperately. If you want to stop things like what you cited from happening, lobb…

>In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities.

Your feelings, whatever they are, that lead you to your opinions, political principles, or ethics, are inherently immune to being invalidated by others.

However, it makes me nervous to read comments such as yours, because my first reaction is that I can't tell what motivates you.

Oftentimes deep feelings come from personal connections.

If person A had a loved one who became homeless, and person B spent a week in a mental hospital, then those people might naturally have very different reactions to history or public policy debates.

Neither is right or wrong, but either might learn from the other.

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