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Kissinger's killing fields

theintercept.com

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Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#101

Post by worik »

kornhole wrote: post #91
int_19h wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war in Ukraine is an imperial war, instigated by another empire. So if you consider imperial wars to be horrible, supporting their victims is a good way to make amends, no?

Your understanding supports this claim. If you go outside the mainstream media and this outlet, you might hear that the US is the only real empire with ~800 military bases around the world and their NATO that has expanded right up to Russia's borders. The best way to support the victims of Ukraine is to help them not die and suffer further by supporting peace talks, cease fires, and détente instead of sending them we…

> NATO that has expanded right up to Russia's borders.

Does that make slaughtering up to 100,000 young men, and many civilians who get in the way, justified?

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is in every way just as bad as USA's invasion of Iraq.

Both are horrific crimes, which should see the executives of the Russia, and the USA, hang. If anybody should hang, Bush (and Blair?) up there with Putin.

Unsure what to do with Obama. His use of remote control killing robots should put him up there on the gallows.

Actually I would put the three of them (and Blair) in goal for life - I do not approve of killing for any reason.

Unlike the rulers of the USA and Russia

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#102

Post by vlovich123 »

hummer_embark wrote: post #45
koolba wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching what’s become of Ukraine and China must be keeping him going. Probably doesn’t even need a Viagra prescription anymore.

The Ukraine war is a negative for him. He wanted to use Russia against China. Like how he previously used China against the Soviet Union. He was the one advising Trump towards detente with Russia during the 2016 campaign. Unfortunately for him, others within the deep state made that policy impossible.

That’s an interesting take. Only a year or two ahead of the Ukrainian election Trump was threatening withholding agreed to and paid for arms shipments to Ukraine unless they announce investigations into Biden’s son. His people also blatantly lied claiming meetings with Russians ahead of elections were just about adoption policy whereas really it was about lifting the Magnitsky act which was the reason Russia banned US adoptions.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#103

Post by kornhole »

dragonwriter wrote: post #95
kornhole wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your understanding supports this claim. If you go outside the mainstream media and this outlet, you might hear that the US is the only real empire with ~800 military bases around the world and their NATO that has expanded right up to Russia's borders. The best way to support the victims of Ukraine is to help them not die and suffer further by supporting peace talks, cease fires, and détente instead of sending them we…

> NATO that has expanded right up to Russia's borders. NATO was formed on Russia's borders, it didn’t need to expand to reach them. And countries near you joining a regional security arrangement isn’t a casus belli , most especially not against completely different countries that you have already succeeded in getting the alliance not to admit, thereby also quelling the country’s interest in joining the alliance . I k…

Do not confuse Russia with the Soviet Union. When NATO formed, it's border was the partition of Germany and below. Now it includes many countries that were formally part of the Soviet Union. The US made assurances that NATO would not expand eastward. Ask Jeffrey Sachs who was there when those agreements were made. https://www.commondreams.org/author/jeffrey-d-sachs

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#104

Post by dragonwriter »

kornhole wrote: post #103
dragonwriter wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NATO that has expanded right up to Russia's borders. NATO was formed on Russia's borders, it didn’t need to expand to reach them. And countries near you joining a regional security arrangement isn’t a casus belli , most especially not against completely different countries that you have already succeeded in getting the alliance not to admit, thereby also quelling the country’s interest in joining the alliance . I k…

Do not confuse Russia with the Soviet Union. When NATO formed, it's border was the partition of Germany and below. Now it includes many countries that were formally part of the Soviet Union. The US made assurances that NATO would not expand eastward. Ask Jeffrey Sachs who was there when those agreements were made. https://www.commondreams.org/author/jeffrey-d-sachs

> Do not confuse Russia with the Soviet Union

Russia was a constituent Republic of the Soviet Union and NATO was on the border of Russia, as well as the Soviet Union, when it was formed.

> The US made assurances that NATO would not expand eastward

Informal assurances of current intent given to the Soviet Union around the time of German reunification and never reduced to a treaty or even a formal executive agreement are not binding commitments with unlimited time horizons inheritable by successor states. (And, anyhow, Russia's active pursuit of NATO membership, including under Putin until he got upset that he couldn't bypass the readiness requirements and be directly admitted ahead of others, would have been a clear repudiation of it if it did still have some applicability.)

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#105

Post by agentdrtran »

camillomiller wrote: post #62
g8oz wrote: post #59

This article is an excellent riposte to the nauseatingly worshipful interview with Kissinger that the Economist published this week. https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/05/17/henry-kissinge...

As a journalist, I am disgusted by what the Economist has become. Or maybe was it always this low level boot-licking rag?

It was literally founded as a boot-licking rag! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist#History

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#106

Post by missedthecue »

favorited wrote: post #74
science4sail wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While the US isn't a signatory to the ICC, a cargo van and a private jet would solve that. Wouldn't that just result in the US invading the Netherlands to rescue them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... > This authorization led to the act being colloquially nicknamed "The Hague Invasion Act", as the act allows the President to order U.S. military action, such as an invasion of The Hague…

Which would be a disaster, because it would be an intra-NATO military conflict, and while intra-NATO military alliances exist, they are untested and it's hard to imagine another NATO state backing US military action in the Netherlands. The Netherlands would invoke Article 5 and request military assistance from other NATO members against the US.

Isn't there intra NATO conflict between Turkey and Greece?

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#107

Post by missedthecue »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #88
pessimizer wrote: post #40

Neither major US party has significantly different policy than Kissinger, and currently both are significantly more aggressive. They also both believe that Domino Theory is true. The major difference is that Kissinger and Nixon opened up China, while the US sees the comfort and wealth of Chinese people as the biggest threat facing the world today. Kissinger is a scapegoat that lets everyone else off. He's another Jud…

"the US sees the comfort and wealth of Chinese people as the biggest threat facing the world today" This is a pretty crazy thing to say. I am aware that you can find this opinion in Chinese propaganda but what leads you to believe that this is actually true and the US/China tension is not a function of the fact that the US is an ally to most democracies and opposed to most authoritarian states? I mean, if we just loo…

Is it really such a crazy thing to say when US officials like the commerce secretary are publicly saying that the US needs to get Europe on board so they can more effectively slow the Chinese innovation rate?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/28/us-needs-to-work-with-europe...

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#108

Post by missedthecue »

mjhay wrote: post #28
celtoid wrote: post #19

Not just Cambodia. What Kissinger and Nixon did in Chile in 1973 was a crime that brought untold suffering to the people of Chile. "...[What are we to make of] President Nixon and Secretary of State Kissinger who, having been emboldened by various multinational corporations such as IT&T and PEPSICO, pursued another attempt to bring down Allende, an attempt which was operated through the White House and even kept secr…

We're still doing the same antics. The OAS and State Dept supported the failed (literal) fascist coup in Bolivia, and also the recent one in Peru that has lead to quite a few deaths so far due to police/military brutality. Both were claimed to somehow be about upholding democracy despite strong popular opposition.

The coup attempt in Perú was by a leftist politician, it wasn't some right-wing power grab. Castillo was overwhelmingly voted to be removed from power by democratic means. He flailed and tried to get the military on his side and it didn't work. The current president of Perú is not some installed puppet, it's Castillo's vice president.

Saying it was US anti-leftist meddling is baseless conspiracy theory.

(I'm Peruvian and live in Perú.)

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#109

Post by AbrahamParangi »

missedthecue wrote: post #107
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the US sees the comfort and wealth of Chinese people as the biggest threat facing the world today" This is a pretty crazy thing to say. I am aware that you can find this opinion in Chinese propaganda but what leads you to believe that this is actually true and the US/China tension is not a function of the fact that the US is an ally to most democracies and opposed to most authoritarian states? I mean, if we just loo…

Is it really such a crazy thing to say when US officials like the commerce secretary are publicly saying that the US needs to get Europe on board so they can more effectively slow the Chinese innovation rate? https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/28/us-needs-to-work-with-europe...

That story is about getting China to respect some system of IP protection. It's a trade dispute. The US does not literally care how rich the Chinese people are - that's an insane idea that only shows up in Chinese propaganda.

“America is most effective when we work with our allies,” Raimondo told CNBC’s Kayla Tausche in an exclusive interview. “If we really want to slow down China’s rate of innovation, we need to work with Europe.”

“They’re ripping off our IP, they are not playing by the rules. It’s not a level playing field. And so we need to hold their feet to the fire to make sure that they do that,” she said, adding that Beijing is “not living up to the agreements that they made.”

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#110

Post by lisasays »

kornhole wrote: post #91
int_19h wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war in Ukraine is an imperial war, instigated by another empire. So if you consider imperial wars to be horrible, supporting their victims is a good way to make amends, no?

Your understanding supports this claim. If you go outside the mainstream media and this outlet, you might hear that the US is the only real empire with ~800 military bases around the world and their NATO that has expanded right up to Russia's borders. The best way to support the victims of Ukraine is to help them not die and suffer further by supporting peace talks, cease fires, and détente instead of sending them we…

The best way to support the victims of Ukraine is to help them not die and suffer further

In other words - your view is that the Ukrainians are incapable of deciding on their own whether to keep fighting their perfectly well-meaning Russian liberators, or not.

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