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US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

theguardian.com

101–110 of 151 posts

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem like criminals per se (apart from murders by highly organized crime), but rather people with severe mental health problems. Mental health problems that are seemingly due to mainlining social media memes telling them everyone is out to get them, which have been given a pass due to standing in for real political discourse. For example by the time someone is answering their front door with a gun and poin…

Do you have evidence for that because psychologists disagree with you. But let's pretend they don't. I'm all for universal mental health care. How does that help? What can we do to curtail gun violence, if we take the stance that it's a mental health issue? Evaluate everyone before letting them buy guns? Sold! Hell, I'll give mine back (after I've damaged them beyond use so no one can have them in the future). We can…

Evidence for what, specifically? It's pretty obvious that society is having a major mental health crisis, likely caused by social media, and this isn't particularly controversial when talked about in any other context. But in this context, the groupthink of one political tribe is to focus on extremist solutions about the tools themselves as part of the culture war, all but guaranteeing that nothing will really change.

And yes, I specifically said that mental illness should make you ineligible to possess firearms (isn't this already federal law or am I getting it confused with state laws?). There likely needs to be more implementation details to make this restriction actually effective. And there needs to be buy in from actual gun owners to police their own communities, rather than it being seen as more top-down nanny state regulations to be ignored. This used to be part of common sense, but especially with the rise of social media, it isn't so common any more.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#103
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could compare the violent crime rare where you currently live to where you want to live. I would say that there are many other concerns to weigh than simply one dimension, be it this or any other. The overall cultural values are likely a better thing to look at and would be indicated by multiple topics.

Don't forget to view the trend lines. Don't go any place where they're headed up. Checks data... that means... No to America.

"Don't go any place where they're headed up."

So, most place since the pandemic?

Crime rates fluctuates and have local variances. Again, a single point of comparison is not a good indicator of whether to move to some place or not. Even within the US you can move from a high crime area to a low crime area. There have been some articles on here recently about celebrities doing that.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#104
post #3

Cat's out of the bag on this one. You will never get all the guns back, not without running a very real risk of instigating civil war. Ms. Jackson Lee thinks the real cause of the problem is "guns, guns, guns" - I say it's criminals, criminals, criminals. Why's Texas have so many criminals willing to use firearms for evil?

> very real risk of instigating civil war. Doubtful. Especially considering the American Civil war was started by wealthy land owners, but fought by the poorest conscripted Southerners. I don't really think Americans are willing to give up their extremely consumerist lives to fight and potentially die over what is essentially a hobby to most. Of course it's a convenient narrative: that Americans would take up arms in…

> I don't really think Americans are willing to give up their extremely consumerist lives to fight and potentially die over what is essentially a hobby to most.

I strongly disagree with the characterization that firearms are a "hobby to most".

That might have been the case as recently as the 1980s, but the push for gun control in the 1990s, culminating in the "Assault Weapons Ban" of 1994, galvanized gun owners. I believe that a comfortable majority of gun owners today see through a political lens, not as a hobby.

There's a reason the AR-15 became so prominent so quickly: they were (ineffectively) banned in 1994. When the Assault Weapons Ban expired in 2004, they flew off the shelves. They became symbols of the resistance to gun control, to the point that they acquired the nickname "America's Rifle".

Now consider that in 1994, there were far, far fewer ARs in citizens' hands and a gun culture that was largely oriented around hunting. In 2023, American gun culture is firmly rooted in political activism.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#105
post #3

Cat's out of the bag on this one. You will never get all the guns back, not without running a very real risk of instigating civil war. Ms. Jackson Lee thinks the real cause of the problem is "guns, guns, guns" - I say it's criminals, criminals, criminals. Why's Texas have so many criminals willing to use firearms for evil?

You can slowly kill the gun culture over generations, both through legal restrictions and social ostracism of gun owners. Happy that my home country of Canada is becoming ever more anti gun.

Statistics show that laws have had the opposite effect in the US - they've fostered an anti-authoritarian cause that has become by far the dominant meme in gun culture.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The media seemed extremely motivated to point out race for George Floyd and other anecdotal cases. It seems only fair to then also look at race when it comes to statistics. Otherwise, one is effectively lying by cherry-picking which cases to focus on. Besides, others seem quite confident the issue is guns. Without examining other causes, we can't be sure that's the case.

I'm confident it's white men with a history of misogyny and access to guns. The data supports that too. We love screaming about the one offs but that's smoke and mirrors.

The FBI crime statistics I cited [0] show that whites have one of the lowest per-capita homicide rates. Specifically, the white+Hispanic [1] homicide rate is 1.16 per 100k, while the Black rate is 7.98. So which data are you referring to? Because the data I can find supports the exact opposite of your claim.

[0] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

[1] Due to how the FBI reports Hispanic ethnicity separately from race, it is difficult to calculate homicide rates for whites and Hispanics separately, so for this comparison the white+Hispanic rate will have to suffice.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#107
post #46

More and more it seems the country is too corrupt to fix this problem. When will Americans realize they are not living in a democracy?

We are living in a democracy. There is a significant portion of the population that does not want any movement on gun control. I understand most Americans agree that we need some type of background checks and other common sense restrictions in place, but the hesitation to implement this is largely because of the extreme faction, and honestly the gun control that there is broad support to pass wouldn't fix the problem…

All polls report a majority of Americans want gun control, it’s not about a lack of movement on gun control, it’s the opposite, controls are being removed with horrible and predictable results. We are heading in the wrong direction on that issue.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#109
post #3

Cat's out of the bag on this one. You will never get all the guns back, not without running a very real risk of instigating civil war. Ms. Jackson Lee thinks the real cause of the problem is "guns, guns, guns" - I say it's criminals, criminals, criminals. Why's Texas have so many criminals willing to use firearms for evil?

It doesn't seem like criminals per se (apart from murders by highly organized crime), but rather people with severe mental health problems. Mental health problems that are seemingly due to mainlining social media memes telling them everyone is out to get them, which have been given a pass due to standing in for real political discourse. For example by the time someone is answering their front door with a gun and poin…

> For example by the time someone is answering their front door with a gun and pointing it at whomever is there, it's clear that person is suffering from a paranoia that should make them ineligible to possess firearms.

First, let me say that "pointing at whomever is there" is a big step too far. Also, arbitrarily pointing a gun at someone who is not a threat to you in order to intimidate them is already a separate crime in the US - "brandishing". In the few states that don't have specific brandishing laws, that act typically falls under "assault" or "assault with a deadly weapon".

That said, it's very common for people to answer the door armed. I do. Generally that's a holstered pistol on my belt, but if I'm not wearing "street clothes" at the time it could be a tiny pistol in my pocket, a full-size pistol in my hand behind the door so it can't be seen, or a carbine similarly concealed.

Why? I grew up in a place where police response averaged a half hour or more. My home was a half mile (~0.8km for those of you outside the US) down a private gravel road; if someone was at my door that I didn't expect or recognize, chances are they were unwelcome. Generally that means salesmen, but we weren't the only people familiar with police response times, so precautions were well-founded.

Today it's partly a habit for me. Like many people, I have a cloud-connected camera system around my home and a doorbell camera. I never have to go to my door without knowing who to expect when I open it. It's not entirely habit though - if I'm physically answering the door and don't recognize the person on the other side, I can reasonably expect that the purpose of the interaction will be to eject them from my property. A firearm is nothing more than a tool to facilitate doing that with minimal risk to myself and my family.

> And this should be policed by other gun owners!

We do! Gun stores have the ability to deny a sale to anyone, at any time, for any reason. They exercise it regularly. If you don't believe me, find someone who can legally own a firearm and have them go into a gun store while smelling of weed, or alcohol. Alternatively, have them act erratically in the store. Then ask to buy a gun. Chances are they'll be refused service and told to leave at that point. If not, the person at the counter will give them a "Form 4473". There's a fair chance that the employee will use the time spent by the customer to fill out the 4473 to call the police. If the customer fills it out and their answers indicate that they are not a prohibited person, expect the employee to call in the background check and then pretend that the response is delayed. The customer will be instructed to come back later, at a specific time or when called. Police will be present when they're told to return.

Seriously. I've worked in a gun store and spend a fair amount of time in them, and I've seen this (or variants thereof) play out many times. If you come in and can't suppress your crazy long enough to hold a courteous conversation, you're not buying a firearm from them.

> But it's been drawn into this culture war where if we admit that Crazy Bob perhaps shouldn't have guns, then the "liberals" win or whatever.

What I see is that we're not afraid to "self-police", but see attempts to pass laws with an arbitrary means of depriving citizens of their rights without due process as a (rather obvious) attempt for the government to acquire the tools to disarm citizens at their leisure. In other words: it's not that we think Crazy Bob should be armed, but that we would much rather risk Armed Crazy Bob than to give the government the ability to apply the "Crazy" monicker to whomever they like.

Re: US on track to set record in 2023 for mass killings after series of shootings

#110
post #3

Cat's out of the bag on this one. You will never get all the guns back, not without running a very real risk of instigating civil war. Ms. Jackson Lee thinks the real cause of the problem is "guns, guns, guns" - I say it's criminals, criminals, criminals. Why's Texas have so many criminals willing to use firearms for evil?

The good news is that guns are made of metal and metal rusts. So outlaw the military weapons and replacement parts and wait.

FYI: there's a pistol sitting on my desk in front of me, right now, that I had disassembled last night to thoroughly inspect and clean. It was made in 1909.

That 114-year-old pistol is not only still functional, the only way you could tell it wasn't factory-new when I bought it a few years ago was that the black hard rubber grips were starting to turn a little brown at the edges, and the nickel finish was discolored in a few places on the slide. I've since restored the grips and carefully polished the finish to correct those two points.

Off the top of my head, I have at least two shotguns, one pistol, and four rifles that have been in my family for >100 years. One of those rifles is so old that I'm unsure who first acquired it. It's a "Pennsylvania long rifle". Made long before serial numbers were "a thing", I'd date it to about 1820 based on the style. I know my great-great-grandfather had it, because I have a photograph of him using it as an old man in the early 1900s.

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