Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills • Hacker News Board

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#101

Post by vuln » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:15 PM UTC

swatcoder wrote: post #52

vuln wrote: post #27

This law will not give "poor kids more independence", it absolves the parent or guardian of legal responsibility for their children being unsupervised. I can't be the only one that's seen the hundreds if not THOUSANDS of children (under 18) fighting, causing mayhem, attacking innocent people, and property destruction videos that circulate all over the internet. Will this help edge cases? The mom working at the pizza…

> I can't be the only one that's seen the hundreds if not THOUSANDS of children (under 18) fighting, causing mayhem, attacking innocent people, and property destruction videos that circulate all over the internet. I can’t think of a worse way to assess the state of society than by consuming viral videos circulated online. This is a really disturbing way to form or justify opinions.

Really? You don't think social media, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, OnlyFans, 4chan, et al, is a mirror image of the current society as a whole?

How do you assess the state of society? Without looking at the content said society produces?

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#102

Post by acuozzo » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:17 PM UTC

Gordonjcp wrote: post #73

America just seems like the weirdest fucking place. You're all going on about being the only truly free country in the world, but you can be jailed for letting your child play in your garden. What the fuck, guys?

America is home to over 21M individuals with a net worth of $1M or more.

For them, America is free; perhaps more free than .

The remaining 310M exist to create freedom for the 21M. They are pacified with the propaganda of class: the "middle class"; the "working class"; the poor; the prisoners.

Each person below the peak of the pyramid is taught from a young age to fear becoming part of the level below.

Each person below the peak of the pyramid is taught from a young age that every level is rigged with a series of doors which lead directly to the basement in which they will find the good old 13thAmendmentLoophole™.

Additionally, each person below the peak of the pyramid is taught from a young age that there exist a few hidden doors on each level which lead to a secret route that goes directly to the top. These doors were initially installed by Horatio Alger Jr, but have been maintained by countless persons since. Rumors exist that John Steinbeck scrawled expletives on a few.

Since 1971 or so the the pyramid has evolved into an incredibly-slippery cone. It keeps growing and growing, but getting thinner and more slippery as time goes on. Rumors exist that it is stretching itself to Mars, but I imagine it will likely fall short of that since the cone is made from plastic.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#103

Post by angarg12 » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:18 PM UTC

I'm a recent immigrant to the US, and when talking to locals I need to bite my tongue to not say "for the land of the free, you sure have an awful lot of rules".

As much as America prides itself on their freedoms, they have rules that would baffle most developed countries. And at the same time they are incredibly loose in other contexts, such as safety and quality control e.g. substances that are banned in the EU are legal here.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#104

Post by dave78 » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:19 PM UTC

Tostino wrote: post #91

strken wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 9 year old (admittedly not in the US), when there was a day without school but my parents still had to work, I was allowed to stay home on my own and ride my bicycle to a town 5km away to buy lunch. My 7 year old brother wasn't allowed to stay home, but came on similar trips with me. The adequate childcare for a responsible 9 year old might be "tell them to call 911 if there's a serious emergency, or text you if…

This is how I grew up in the US (central FL) in the 90's. I was 6-7 when I was riding my bike down to the corner store ~0.5mi away, and ~10 I was staying home and watching my sisters when necessary. I was perfectly capable of cooking and looking after things. I just don't get this hysteria that seems to have gripped so many people. We are living in one of the safest times to be alive.

I grew up like this too (in the US in the 80s). I now have an 8 year old, and I think she would be fine at home alone for a while if necessary (especially with easy access to me via phone/Alexa/whatever).

However, in my state (Illinois), the government has made it illegal to leave my kids home alone until they are 14 (14!) years old. This is insanity, but I don't dare risk it because on the off chance anything happened and the police found out, I fear the government would take my children away.

I don't think the hysteria is coming from the average American. I think it is coming from nanny-state politicians who want to campaign on "cracking down on child abuse" or whatever.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#105

Post by ajsnigrutin » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:20 PM UTC

pilarphosol wrote: post #31

kwhitefoot wrote: post #26

The US seems to be the only country that has this problem. Children here (Norway) walk to school on their own at the age of five or six, some of them take buses. "Ashley Smith, a foster dad, testified about being investigated for neglect because one afternoon his daughter, 8, was doing her homework on the front lawn. A passerby reported an “unsupervised” child (not knowing Ashley was actually inside). The upshot: “We…

The US is a low trust society, because of all the poverty. You really notice the difference if you travel to Europe. It turns out that having half of the population be economically unsafe makes everyone and everything unsafe.

I've been through a lof of the balkan areas in the 1990s, also yugoslavia/serbia during the sanctions before the 1999 nato bombing and fast after, and during all those times in all those areas there was A LOT of poverty.

Kids were playing outside all the time... from urban belgrade, parks and playgrounds surrounded by huge socialist buildings, to rural villages. Going to school? Sure, kids 7, 8, 9yo walking alone to school was (and still is) a normal thing. Usually elementary schools (6/7->14/15yo) were walking distance, but some still had to use a public/city transport. High schools meant a bus/tram for a majority of kids. During weekends seeing a bunch of kids outside even late at night was normal and still is.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#106

Post by yamtaddle » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:20 PM UTC

foolswisdom wrote: post #5

I shudder every time I see a thread related to this topic (child protective services making insane decisions with no oversight, because the law is vague enough to let them do so).

It's not just the vagueness of the law, it's a system and culture in which pursuing a bullshit claim draws no punishment, but ignoring a claim that a reasonable person would judge to be bullshit and turning out to be wrong may ruin your life.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#107

Post by vuln » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:20 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #80

vuln wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

_A REASONABLE AND PRUDENT PARENT_ can decide that their child should be allowed to roam free at _HOME_ or _A SAFE LOCATION_. Now who gets to decide what a _reasonable and prudent parent_ is?

No, you're restricting it more than the law calls for. A child is not neglected when they are allowed to participate in any activities that a reasonable and prudent parent would judge to be within their capabilities. You're getting too fixated on that one example, and there are a lot of places in the US where a child of a certain age can and should be allowed to roam pretty much anywhere. You're correct the language…

I think they should restrict activity in the way I understood it. Restrict to home and or a safe location and remove the judicial interpretation. I would be 100% fine with that.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#108

Post by em-bee » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:21 PM UTC

croutonwagon wrote: post #38

s1artibartfast wrote: post #3

This seems like a reasonable proposal to protect parents against subjective interpretation of the law. Responsible parents should be able to gauge the capabilities of their children and give them Independence based on that was capabilities opposed to fear of third-party criminalization

The problem is that there are busy bodies that will involve third parties, possibly with good intentions, but still. For example > But people have very different ideas of what “proper supervision” entails (as you know if you have, say, a spouse). One parent lets their kids play outside at age 6, another not till 12. My kids play outside on their own now. At 3 and 6. My 6 year old has been doing so since about 3. Once…

some media/shows that portray the parents as toys (ie: Bluey) because we notice it tends to stunt their independence and skews their overall expectations of a parent child relationship.

could you elaborate on that please? bluey seems to promote a healthy parent-child relationship (at least in the few episodes that i saw). how does it stunt their independence and skew their expectations? are you suggesting that showing parents that are always available gives the wrong idea to children about their parents? how would that play out?

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#109

Post by kungfooey » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:22 PM UTC

bcrosby95 wrote: post #96

kwhitefoot wrote: post #26

The US seems to be the only country that has this problem. Children here (Norway) walk to school on their own at the age of five or six, some of them take buses. "Ashley Smith, a foster dad, testified about being investigated for neglect because one afternoon his daughter, 8, was doing her homework on the front lawn. A passerby reported an “unsupervised” child (not knowing Ashley was actually inside). The upshot: “We…

I walk my kids to school in the US, but I definitely see kids as young as 6 walking without a parent. I choose to walk with my kids because I enjoy it, and it's easy exercise. That said, a lot of parents still drive their kids - the vast majority I would say. Even people who live within walking distance. It definitely is faster if you look at it in a vacuum: you save 10 minutes round trip! And when casually discussin…

I live about a half mile from my kid's school and we walk most days, or I bike.

However, it has been... eye opening. We live in a fairly urban area of Nashville, but my street doesn't have sidewalks. We've been yelled at multiple times (me, my wife, and our kindergartner) by drivers to "Get out of the road!" (This is on a 25 mph street.) There are ditches and uneven ground on both sides of the road.

Even the sidewalks we _do_ have on our route are paltry... about 3 feet wide and immediately adjacent to a busy 30 mph road. We sometimes walk in the grass next to the sidewalk, and I actually had one neighbor yell at us to "Get out of the yard, get on the sidewalk." That one took the cake for me.

So, yeah. There's a lot of reasons people don't walk to work, but one of them might be that everyone and everything assumes you're supposed to drive in a car and idle in the parking lot for 20 minutes rather than walking. Walking can be _stressful_, especially if you're doing it with multiple kids (which I often do).

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#110

Post by victorhooi » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 10:22 PM UTC

syrrim wrote: post #24

wonderwonder wrote: post #20

I remember reading a news story about a poor single mom who was renting a room in an extended stay and working in a pizzarea across the street from it. She left her 9? year old alone in the room so she could work. Cops show up and take her kid and arrest her for child endangerment. They made it illegal to be a poor single working mom.

They made it illegal to be a single mom and not provide adequate childcare. Many families have both parents working, so the situation of needing to find someone to look after your child is not unique to single parents. That said, this is one of the reasons raising children on your own is more difficult.

I think you're glossing over a few things here...

Firstly, many societies around the world would consider 9 yo to be mature enough to do things like....go to the shops, use a telephone, go to a friends place to play, or look after a pet. Or in this...stay at home?

I'm not sure if it's specifically an American thing (and seemingly by extension, Australia, since there's so much cultural osmosis), but it does feel like we are infantilising our children, right into their young adulthood. Apparently it's normal now for somebody in their 20's to continue living with their parents, and have their parents do things like cook all their meals for them, do their laundry, etc

Secondly, what you're suggesting specifically targets poorer, or possibly Black people - I'm not sure if that's your intent? However, you're basically saying it's not OK to be poor, and not be able to afford things like a live-in nanny, or daycare (if available).