Live data from Hacker News

Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

quantamagazine.org

101–110 of 120 posts

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just took a stab at recreating my older solution. It goes something like this Number the balls 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 Then do three weighings according to rows like this: 0 1 -1 0 1 -1 1 -1 0 1 -1 0 1 1 -1 -1 -1 0 0 1 1 1 -1 -1 -1 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 Where -1 means index on left side of of balance, 0 means not on balance, 1 means on right side of balance. Note each row has the same number of -1 and 1. If…

Why do the balls have to be numbered starting at 7?

I'm a different person, but I can provide some commentary about that.

A. There are many ways to identify the misweighted ball in three deterministic weighings. The simple approach is to label the possible states 1 to 24, or alpha to omega, or what have you, and then to assign an outcome code to each state.

SideQuark wants to entwine the outcome codes with the state labels, so that the label for each state is the value represented by its outcome code when that code is interpreted as a trinary number. This sets up feedback between things that would otherwise be independent of each other; it's sort of like writing a quine.

B. Therefore, it's possible that the odd choice to start numbering the balls at 7 (and skip 13) represents a compromise with what outcome codes our system can generate.

(For example, you can identify and diagnose the misweighted ball in these three deterministic weighings: 1,2,3,4 vs 5,6,7,8; 1,5,9,10 vs 2,6,7,11; 2,4,6,9 vs 3,7,10,12. If an outcome of 0 represents the right side of the scale being heavier, and 1 represents the left side being heavier, then the outcome code 121 uniquely identifies the 4 ball as being too heavy. But 121 interpreted as a trinary number is 16, not 4.

In fact, in this weighing scheme, the outcome code "4" (= 011) cannot occur, and 9 and 26 are also impossible.)

C. SideQuark appears to be cheating in that his balls are labeled from 7 to 19 (skipping 13), but his column indices range from 1 to 12. This means he's given up on getting a real correspondence between label and outcome code (the balls have different labels depending on whether you're reading the specification of the test [1-12 in full] or the interpretation of the result [7-19 with a hole]), but it looks like he is still aiming to have a meaningful correspondence between the code that specifies a particular ball is heavy and the code that specifies the same ball is light.

D. We're going to record a trinary number between 000 and 222, a range from 0 to +26. It is not clear to me how we would get a negative number. We could interpret the number we get as a three-trit three's complement value, but in that case we'd really want the balls to be labeled from 1 to 12, so that a single value uniquely identifies and diagnoses a ball - for an example of the problem we're about to run into, the outcome 101 represents the value 10, and should tell us that the 10 ball is too heavy, but if we're using three's complement then 101 is also the value -17, which tells us that the 17 ball is too light. This is a bad outcome when the 10 ball and the 17 ball both exist.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#102
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not out of the box when I apply error correcting codes to a massive range of problems ;) If you like cool problems, here is one I have not found a simple solution for, but I once saw it in a place where a simple solution should exist. You have an odd number >=3 of items with the property that any time you remove one, there is a way to split the remaining items into two equal count piles of equal weight. Show all…

I remember that problem from my college linear algebra course! I found a nice simple proof for integers (which was very satisfying!) but afaik you do need heavy linear algebra machinery to generalise it to the reals.

Why doesn't the integer proof work on reals?

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how you weigh the balls? How many do you weigh at a time and how do you decide which ones to weigh? I'm trying to follow your solution but I'm confused about this one thingn

The traditional solutions do things like: 1) split into 4 piles A,B,C. compare A,B on the balance. 2) If they balance, bad coin in 4 in pile C can easily be found. 3) If they don't balance, you know the 4 in C are good. At this point you have to fiddle by mixing coins among piles cleverly to get more weighings. But you can do it in three total. If I recall, seomthing like one from A, three from C, versus three from B…

There's a slightly simpler solution if you don't care whether the odd ball is lighter or heavier:

It's:

X. AAAA vs BBBB

If X was balanced, XX: C1 vs C2, then XXX: C2 vs C3 (general way to distinguish 2 unknowns: weigh one unknown against one known)

If X was unbalanced, WLOG assume A was heavier. XY: A1 A2 B1 vs A3 A4 B2

Then if XY balanced, use the general method to distinguish B3 or B4 as answer.

If XY unbalanced, WLOG assume A1 or A2 is heavy, or B2 is light, so XYY A1 vs A2 finds the heavy one or implies B2 is light.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#104

> “Mike said, ‘Justin, you’re going to get me thinking about this problem again and I don’t want to do that,’” said Gilmer. This is a very relatable feeling. I often find myself getting trapped into thinking about problems I am unlikely to solve.

I find that one of the hardest parts of doing research is knowing when to give up on a problem

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#105
post #98

I’m glade to know that “did a PhD in maths six years ago and work in applied mathematics” is now being long out of math. I see clickbaity titles are still doing fine in 2023. Impressive result however.

To be fair, results like this are very improbable to come from someone who is not a full-time mathematician. And no that does not mean someone working in machine learning or someone who did their PhD 6 years ago. How many such results do you see from someone who is not a full-time mathematician? It is possible for someone who is not a full-time mathematician by still working on mathematics in their spare time or in a…

Totally agree. I did a PhD in Pure Math. 6 years later I could no longer give anything but a superficial explanation of my own thesis. Now ~15 years later my thesis is totally impenetrable to me. Advanced math is a house of cards that quickly falls if you're not actively reinforcing it.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#106
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an episode of Columbo with a similar problem, expressed as: there are a number of bags. Each bag contains many gold coins. The gold coins weigh 1 ounce each. However, one bag contains fake coins, which appear the same as the real coins, but have a slightly different weight - 1.1 ounces per coin. You have a scale, which you can only use once, and you must find the bag with the fake coins. The solution is: Take…

I'm amazed that there was an episode of a popular TV drama aired that had such a detailed puzzle in it.

Columbo episodes were unusually long. Each was the length of a short movie: ~1 to ~1.5hrs.

One of the Die Hard movies had the "extract 1 gallon from a 3 gallon and a 5 gallon jug" puzzle in it.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know if the unique ball is heavier or lighter, how would this work?

Ah, if you need to know that for certain then you'd be restricted to 18 balls (6,6,6), (2,2,2), (1,1). Otherwise I guess you would "only" know in 26/27 cases if it was heavier or lighter (off the balance in all 3 conditions). ....and now I understand, you would only initially know there is a difference in weight, not which side had the heavier or lighter ball.

No, you can't solve the harder version with 18 balls, as you just proved.

18 balls have 36>27 states.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#108
post #8

The title makes it sound like an AI solved it but he's just a programmer who normally works on AI that happens to have solved it.

> (i.e. clickbait) It is not clickbait just because you interpreted it wrongly. The AI in the title only aims to demonstrate his state of out-group in regards to math.

"Computer science researcher solves computer science problem" isn't very outgroup.

He's more "in" that problem space than a professional differential topologist.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just took a stab at recreating my older solution. It goes something like this Number the balls 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 Then do three weighings according to rows like this: 0 1 -1 0 1 -1 1 -1 0 1 -1 0 1 1 -1 -1 -1 0 0 1 1 1 -1 -1 -1 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 Where -1 means index on left side of of balance, 0 means not on balance, 1 means on right side of balance. Note each row has the same number of -1 and 1. If…

Why do the balls have to be numbered starting at 7?

Not OP, but the reason is because that the values that you’re looking for tell you how to do the weighings, where the rows are weighings and the columns are the indices (it’s easier to see if you don’t translate from {0,1,2} to {-1,0,1}). Because of the problem you need the same number of balls on each side of the scale.

By choosing 7-19, omit 13, you finding the center values of the range 0-26. This is important because when you write the values in ternary each column has the same number of 0 and 2 digits.

This would not hold if you simply used the values 0-12, for example. Then the first column has eight 0’s and four 1’s, so it does not correspond to a valid weighting.

It’s important to note that this method doesn’t work for the problem described - it only works if you know that the odd ball out is heavier. You can see my other comment for a description of why, and a working solution.

Re: Google researcher, long out of math, cracks devilish problem about sets

#110
> Still, for some of the authors of the follow-up papers, getting to 38% was relatively straightforward, and they wondered why Gilmer didn’t just do it himself. The simplest explanation turned out to be the correct one: After more than a half-decade out of math, Gilmer just didn’t know how to do some of the technical analytic work required to pull it off.

> “I was a bit rusty, and to be honest, I was stuck,” Gilmer said. “But I was eager to see where the community would take it.”

> Yet Gilmer thinks the same circumstances that left him out of practice probably made his proof possible in the first place.

This reminds me of the principle of Shoshin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin

The idea that the mindset of a beginner can sometimes find insight where the mind of an expert cannot, and that experts should cultivate thinking like a beginner in some instances.

Post reply on HN