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EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#101

Post by Canada »

alkonaut wrote: post #25
shakow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't really think of any good legitimate use cases for large amounts of cash. Buying a car?

I can’t imagine a car dealer who would do anything but laugh if I bought a car north of €10k and suggested I wanted to pay in cash. I’m 100% sure they’d rather not sell the car at all. Same if I privately sold a car that expensive and the buyer showed up with cash. The hassle involved with depositing and withdrawing large amounts of cash due to KYC laws already makes this a no go. And for good reason imo.

> can’t imagine a car dealer who would do anything but laugh if I bought a car north of €10k and suggested I wanted to pay in cash.

Doesn't sound like how any car salesman, or any commission salesman I've ever met thinks.

Car ownership is registered with government anyway, so it's not as if anyone can get away with pretending to be poor and owning a bunch of fancy cars anyway.

In my personal experience cash is how used car sales are done between individuals. There is sales tax on used car sales where I'm from. When the sale is agreed the seller and the buyer go to the registry. Say I'm selling you my car for 20k. You don't own the car until I sign ownership to you. I don't get any money until you hand me the cash. So safe thing to do is seller requires buyer to hand cash over and count it in front of the goverment agent. Buyer would prefer seller lie and understate sale price, but seller has no incentive to do that unless buyer gives that cash upfront. Buyer risks seller just saying "nah" and walking away with that cash. So it either requires trust, in which case no scheme the government comes up with can stop us anyway, or one party takes a serious risk, which there is strong disincentive to do.

Car has book value government agent knows anyway. Also, goverment exempts tax when seller and buyer are related. Government: "lol, you have trust, our despicable cash grab will not work here anyway so let's not bother"

So who cares here? Most big ticket property (eg. Real estate) works like this.

Some things like jewlery can slide through, but without receipts is risky crossing borders, which puts a serious damper status/utility of it, and those industries already get higher scruitiny anyway. And anyway, is it worth giving up our liberty over some tax revenue related to stuff like this?

So why prevent cash payments? The only purpose it serves it to keep the everyman under total control and open him to even more theft of savings via negative interest rates or transaction fees by financial middlemen.

Criminalizing cash is totalatarian in my view.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#102

Post by Canada »

zmgsabst wrote: post #34
alkonaut wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine a car dealer who would do anything but laugh if I bought a car north of €10k and suggested I wanted to pay in cash. I’m 100% sure they’d rather not sell the car at all. Same if I privately sold a car that expensive and the buyer showed up with cash. The hassle involved with depositing and withdrawing large amounts of cash due to KYC laws already makes this a no go. And for good reason imo.

“You can’t buy a car without permission” sounds tyrannical to me.

That ship has sailed long ago. I don't know any place where car ownership is not a government registry, and that is surely because the theft of them was so common that something had to be done about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#103

Post by 9dev »

djhn wrote: post #15
Havoc wrote: post #5

This one kinda makes sense to me. Can't really think of any good legitimate use cases for large amounts of cash. Closest I can think of say a bar or something similarly cash heavy getting cash and paying suppliers directly. (which is in itself problematic @ tax)

Any purchase should be possible with legal tender. I will keep withdrawing my income in cash and inconveniencing others with cash transactions for every single purchase, including those exceeding this limit, out of principle. Digital ledgers have proven to be unreliable. Anyone arguing otherwise hasn't witnessed bank runs, withdrawal limits, transaction limits, hyperinflation and war wiping out lifetime savings and d…

And you think a bag full of paper money in your basement will help you once bombs are dropped on your home town? How exactly will that help in war time more than money in your account that you can withdraw once in safety?

If you choose to deal with cash exclusively for the sake of it, so be it. But for everyone else, it’s just a less efficient way to move money from account A to account B.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#104

Post by alkonaut »

wizeman wrote: post #95
alkonaut wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're arguing like if the salesperson is not accepting cash out of their own free will. But you know that's not true. Whose fault is it? I mean they literally don’t and as far as I know this is because is insecure and expensive. A bag of cash is an expensive liability. They’d prefer I deposited the money and transfered it to them instead. Most restaurants and cafes don’t accept cash either although they are certai…

> Most restaurants and cafes don’t accept cash either although they are certainly free to do so. Ok, so I'm curious about this place where you live where most restaurants don't accept cash, so here's a question: Let's say you enter the restaurant, eat the food and now you owe payment, but you don't have a credit card (maybe you didn't notice the "no cash" sign). Legal tender laws say that cash must be accepted as pay…

> Ok, so I'm curious about this place where you live where most restaurants don't accept cash

This is in Sweden.

> Legal tender laws say that cash must be accepted as payment for all debts.

Yes. But those apparently aren’t absolute and non-negotiable. The Riksbank is actually concerned about this, because it’s affecting the ability for the economy to function in a crisis, as well as the ability to make anonymous transactions, so there might be changes to this coming.

(In English:) https://www.riksbank.se/en-gb/payments--cash/payments-in-swe...

But basically today no, there is nothing forcing any business to accept cash today. And as cash use dwindled, the cost of cash handling ballooned to the point where it’s worth swallowing the card fees over paying for cash management. There is also a very widespread cell phone transfer system both for free instant transfers between individuals and for payments. So it’s a widely accepted convenience. Cash is one of those systems now that everyone agrees should remain for privacy and resilience reasons but few are ready to use it. Forcing everyone to accept cash would mean having lots of cash handling expenses (cash registers etc) but still likely almost no cash in circulation. It’s part of the reason the riksbank is eying a CDBC with privacy features.

And yes if you travel to Sweden and order a meal at a restaurant you’ll probably always get away with cash if that is all you have (that is - they’d sort it out but in certain places it might be a bit awkward). But if you asked first they might say they “prefer card”. But pre-paid situations (e.g ordering a coffee to go) will often show a no cash sign. The opposite is always true, you’ll never need cash. If you take a taxi it’s card only, nearly no transactions between individuals (used goods, babysitter, beggar(!)…) are cash either.

In total though, the death of cash isn’t that widespread 8-9 of 10 retailers still accepts cash. It’s mostly in smaller shops, cafes and similar services you don’t see it (and taxi have been cash free for more than a decade). (In Swedish) https://via.tt.se/pressmeddelande/9-av-10-svenska-handlare-t...

However, that a retailer accepts cash doesn’t mean it’s convenient to use. For example in a large grocery store a small number of checkouts might accept cash meaning you’ll be waiting in line to pay with cash - so few will.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#105

Post by 9dev »

wizeman wrote: post #87
alkonaut wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how that’s related. It’s one thing to regulate who must and must not accept cash. E.g it’s in the interest of society to mandate important functions such as buying food is always possible with cash. The law in the article is about a size limit for cash transactions when cash is accepted. It doesn’t have anything to do with who will or must accept cash. Only that if they do, there is a limit.

> E.g it’s in the interest of society to mandate important functions such as buying food is always possible with cash. And buying a car is not important? > Only that if they do, there is a limit. And this limit is below the value of most cars. Which is what we were discussing in this thread.

We’re talking about Europe. Owning a car is a quality of life feature, not a requirement here. Food, on the other hand, is a necessity.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#106

Post by Canada »

alkonaut wrote: post #83
wizeman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And while the value might be there, both are a massive hassle for the seller, so they’d simply refuse most likely. And the "hassle" is not actually accepting cash, as that's the least of the problems. It's dealing with the risk and consequences of doing business with someone the government doesn't approve of and then getting in trouble for it (even though the car business has nothing to do with that person). You're…

> You're arguing like if the salesperson is not accepting cash out of their own free will. But you know that's not true. Whose fault is it? I mean they literally don’t and as far as I know this is because is insecure and expensive. A bag of cash is an expensive liability. They’d prefer I deposited the money and transfered it to them instead. Most restaurants and cafes don’t accept cash either although they are certai…

> Whose fault is it? I mean they literally don’t and as far as I know this is because is insecure and expensive.

That is utterly ridiculous in the case of a car. If that was any concern whatsoever, then the dealer would say "let me drive you to my bank" and accept/deposit it there, which is a very, very common practice when seller is concerned with authenticity of the notes.

It's not an option in low value transactions like restaurant bills but then the risk there is low.

I know there are some places that choose not to accept cash payments to avoid cash accounting risk. That's cool, their choice I walk away... without paying them if they didn't disclose no cash policy clearly up front.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#107

Post by Canada »

wizeman wrote: post #95
alkonaut wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're arguing like if the salesperson is not accepting cash out of their own free will. But you know that's not true. Whose fault is it? I mean they literally don’t and as far as I know this is because is insecure and expensive. A bag of cash is an expensive liability. They’d prefer I deposited the money and transfered it to them instead. Most restaurants and cafes don’t accept cash either although they are certai…

> Most restaurants and cafes don’t accept cash either although they are certainly free to do so. Ok, so I'm curious about this place where you live where most restaurants don't accept cash, so here's a question: Let's say you enter the restaurant, eat the food and now you owe payment, but you don't have a credit card (maybe you didn't notice the "no cash" sign). Legal tender laws say that cash must be accepted as pay…

> Ok, so I'm curious about this place where you live where most restaurants don't accept cash

I've encountered this from the Bay Area to Bangkok. It's a thing. That bar, or that Starbucks or whatever is card only/electronic payment only.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#108

Post by kvdveer »

zmgsabst wrote: post #32
Havoc wrote: post #5

This one kinda makes sense to me. Can't really think of any good legitimate use cases for large amounts of cash. Closest I can think of say a bar or something similarly cash heavy getting cash and paying suppliers directly. (which is in itself problematic @ tax)

I want to be able to legally receive my salary as cash without special permission; eg, a customer paying me for a project. This law prohibits paying me for a month in cash.

This law prohibits you from doing that without reporting it. You'd have report that anyway, when filing your taxes, so apart from some extra admin work, that's not much of an extra hurdle, assuming it honest money.

If you receive your €10k as payment for a shipment of cocaine, you probably don't want to report it, so then you'll enter the territories of fiscal crime.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#109

Post by zxcvbn4038 »

kvdveer wrote: post #26
pigsty wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should anyone have to prove what’s in their pocket is theirs? Why not have police question people for wearing shoes that are a little too nice or seize expensive watches?

Police actually does that here NL). If you declare hardly any income or posessions on your tax report, yet you drive some very expensive car, you may expect a visit from some fraud investigation unit. This has proven very effective against organised crime.

They must be front line street thugs or something - any wise guy worth his weight is going to declare enough income to keep the tax authorities off his back. The rest goes into a safety deposit box someplace distant, or gets commingled into a business someplace. Escobar owned a cab company which he claimed was the source of his income - he even had a couple guys who would drive around picking up and dropping off passengers. In modern drug cartels everyone is a lottery winner - they will pay people full value to sign over lottery winnings to them just so they can report it as their source of income.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#110

Post by alkonaut »

9dev wrote: post #105
wizeman wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g it’s in the interest of society to mandate important functions such as buying food is always possible with cash. And buying a car is not important? > Only that if they do, there is a limit. And this limit is below the value of most cars. Which is what we were discussing in this thread.

We’re talking about Europe. Owning a car is a quality of life feature, not a requirement here. Food, on the other hand, is a necessity.

In terms of resilience to wars, disasters, power outages and similar (which is one of two arguments for cash the other being privacy), I think the key functions are probably food, fuel and similar. That car sales can continue is probably not as important.

That’s why Starbucks can probably get away with rejecting cash in Sweden but a large grocery chain probably can’t and won’t.

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