Nerds and Male Privilege • Hacker News Board

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#101

Post by burgerbrain » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:33 AM UTC

waqf wrote: post #88

burgerbrain wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, there are a few things on that list that don't seem to ring true, or at least seem to be leaving out large portions of the picture. For example: "41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer." The last issue of Playboy that I…

Right, and " 22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex. " Supposing you are caught speeding down the freeway at 110mph on Saturday night. What sex is everyone going to expect you to be?

Or this one

"25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability."

Compare:

  A woman wearing pants.
  A man wearing a dress.

One person is going to have their sexuality judged. And it's not going to be the woman.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#102

Post by dym » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:33 AM UTC

TL;DR version: http://xkcd.com/385/

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#103

Post by commieneko » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:40 AM UTC

angus77 wrote: post #96

commieneko wrote: post #80

I've had a serious interest in comics/animation for about 45 years. I've had a professional interest for about 30 years. I can't really comment on video game culture, from a personal point of view; obviously there were no video games when I was growing up. And the only video game that ever held my interest, other than for their graphics technology, was Myst ; and it hardly had any people in it at all, objectivized or…

There's a lot of diversity in North American comics, just not in their sales. All the diversity gets shoved into the back corner of the store, where only those already "in the know" would dare venture. Check out Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly and their decades-long output of original, reprint and translated material, on about as many different subjects as you can name.

I'm well familiar with the non-mainstream American comic market and literary scene; said as much in the post. But as you said, demographically it is very small, though it does poke through here and there in the mainstream awareness.

Frankly, I find more diversity in the comics/graphic novel section at Barnes and Noble than I do at the local comic book shops. And I'd say about half of that was manga and manga oriented material.

Something I didn't touch on in my previous post, which is kind of ironic considering our current venue, is the diversity found in U.S. web based comics. (The 800 pound gorilla there is Penny Arcade, which is a sort of sympathetic deconstruction of gaming culture.) But since the barrier to entry is essentially zero, there's a lot of diversity in web comics; diversity in style, themes, maturity, ... and quality.

Without really trying I've had the opportunity to meet dozens of web comic creators. Their fan bases range from dozens to thousands; with the largest rivaling mass media audiences. There is certainly much more exploration of specialized interests in this arena than in any other western, English language comics.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of commerce involved. Only a few are able to make a full time living at it. In some ways that's healthy for an art form. In others it can be very limiting. We can hope this aspect will change over time.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#104

Post by burgerbrain » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:47 AM UTC

slurgfest wrote: post #100

da_dude4242 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think most feminists would discount the idea of "female privilege" per se as a false equivalence similar to a hypothetical "black privilege"." That's my point. "The fact that there is a societal preference toward masculinity, which underlies many of your points, is definitely a topic that gets brought up in feminine circles. This is why it's comparatively okay for women to be tomboys and such, and highly frowned u…

I think you are right, but it is really hard to take a nuanced position like that out in public (or anyway, it invites a lot of criticism) because it is inevitably interpreted as a political move to neutralize efforts in favor of groups which are, still, disadvantaged on-the-whole even if they actually are privileged or advantaged in some specific ways.

So I guess we can add "Being able to speak frankly about [opposite gender] privilege in public" to the list of female privileges.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#105

Post by mkramlich » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:50 AM UTC

In other news, most comic book artists and writers are male, most readers are male, a big chunk are teens, and males like pretty/nude/curvaceous females, most teen males likes big breasts and many teen females want to have big breasts, and oh yeah, sex sells. And comic books don't exist in a bubble in their own universe. It's part of this larger thing called the human race. Whatever good/bad/natural things exist in the human race will also be present in the comic book industry. Men have been ogling and fantasizing over females for thousands and very likely millions of years. Clue up. Next topic!

And on a related note, I really wish "gender" submissions on HN would start getting banned automatically. Because they almost always end up a case of beating a dead horse over and over and over again, especially from the perspective of those who've been around long enough.

ps. The author of the OA needs to wander into the Romance section of a bookstore some time. He'll be shocked, shocked at the level of sexual objectification and stereotyping that goes on there. But in the reverse direction. But since the college/PC/lesbian/feminist litmob doesn't care about that, then it's not talked about. It's considered perfectly okay. Quotes from the article like this are common with people who've been programmed with that mindset: "(Obvious disclaimer: I'm a straight white man.)" <-- Oh you poor accidental oppressor you!

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#106

Post by slurgfest » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:50 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #104

slurgfest wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right, but it is really hard to take a nuanced position like that out in public (or anyway, it invites a lot of criticism) because it is inevitably interpreted as a political move to neutralize efforts in favor of groups which are, still, disadvantaged on-the-whole even if they actually are privileged or advantaged in some specific ways.

So I guess we can add "Being able to speak frankly about [opposite gender] privilege in public" to the list of female privileges.

Hmm, I'm not sure - because women talking openly about male privilege might find agreement from some quarters but ridicule or worse from other quarters.

This is like saying that black people have the privilege of talking about race in the US, but whites don't. That might have some truth to it, but overall it's a point-missing half-truth, since black people who talk about that kind of thing are often treated as "angry blacks" or "to ideological" or whatever, and the broader context makes "feeling mildly uncomfortable about race discussions" a comparatively trivial complaint.

(I feel secure in saying this, as a white male)

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#107

Post by burgerbrain » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:58 AM UTC

slurgfest wrote: post #106

burgerbrain wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I guess we can add "Being able to speak frankly about [opposite gender] privilege in public" to the list of female privileges.

Hmm, I'm not sure - because women talking openly about male privilege might find agreement from some quarters but ridicule or worse from other quarters. This is like saying that black people have the privilege of talking about race in the US, but whites don't. That might have some truth to it, but overall it's a point-missing half-truth, since black people who talk about that kind of thing are often treated as "angry…

Well, put it this way: As a white male, I would be extremely uncomfortable having this discussion in public. When this sort of thing comes up, I tend to leave the room or at least sit there quietly.

See, men also may find support in some quarters, and ridicule or worse in other quarters. One of those quarters they may encounter "or worse" happens to be workplace environments where overzealous HR departments can end careers.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#108

Post by captainaj » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 8:59 AM UTC

Helianthus wrote: post #23

Is it problematic that I'm sick of gender on HN? "Raising awareness" doesn't mean much when it essentially provokes the same inconsequential firefights. Can we just agree that men are pigs, women feel entitled, everyone's an asshole, startups need good engineers, and stop it? All this article really shows me is that the girlfriend was correct to avoid going into a comic book store. You cannot control culture you cann…

I'm also tired of the "gender" articles on HN. BUT we don't have to agree that men are entitled (yes, I changed it) and so on. Since not all can agree to disagree, we will continue to see this (hopefully) once in a while.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#109

Post by da_dude4242 » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 9:05 AM UTC

slurgfest wrote: post #106

burgerbrain wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I guess we can add "Being able to speak frankly about [opposite gender] privilege in public" to the list of female privileges.

Hmm, I'm not sure - because women talking openly about male privilege might find agreement from some quarters but ridicule or worse from other quarters. This is like saying that black people have the privilege of talking about race in the US, but whites don't. That might have some truth to it, but overall it's a point-missing half-truth, since black people who talk about that kind of thing are often treated as "angry…

What's unique to this situation is the social construct of the "stronger" and "weaker" sex. A claim of victim hood coming from a female aligns with bias we already hold about women. Women are socialized to emotionally connect with others as a way of support and people are socialized to respond back positively.

A claim of victim hood by a male violates this norm. There is little established protocol for this situation and is basically taboo. So even outside of a politically fragile context there's already a power differential as far as talking frankly or seeking empathy goes.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#110

Post by jcnnghm » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 9:38 AM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #60

da_dude4242 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some of us, however, remember the torment, the humiliation, the violence, the scorn and the ostracism of finding science, electronics, and computers fascinating. There was, indeed, such a time. Many nerds who endured poor treatment at the hands of their peers developed deep emotional traumas that, to this day, exist to some extent or another. One of these traumas is borne of the experience of being not merely reject…

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? For example, while women may be asked to smile by random people (44), they are murdered by random people far less often than men, representing only 21% of victims. Or, while females spend more time grooming than men (27), they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by mothers who do not like the way they look.

There can be some things in society that do not appeal to women. There are certainly things that women find appealing that most men are not at all interested in.

I always kind of thought that young geeks used comic books to escape their reality. This is just a guess, but could it be that some geeks are awkward around women because females weren't nice to them during their adolescence? Sex hormone levels peak at around age 17 for men, senior year of high school. Is it really that unexpected that men that get no positive female attention during their sexual prime don't embrace women exploring geek hobbies?

Perhaps the focus of all these stupid gender articles should be on encouraging young women not to alienate a large subset of people. I would be willing to bet that if geeks were more accepted at an earlier age, many of the perceived gender issues would disappear.