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Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

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Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#101

Post by ethagknight »

twblalock wrote: post #89
ethagknight wrote: post #66

I am so tired of misinformation like this. I know they use the "may" get-out-of-jail-free card in the title, but no, nighttime EV charging will not overburden the grid by 2035, as the article purports, because "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years. Plus, networked software solutions are already baked into EVs for time of day charging; as such, its a solved problem unworthy of a headline. The add…

> "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years. I don't think so. It takes forever for anything to get built in this country. I have zero confidence the grid will improve fast enough to make mass EV adoption practical in many parts of the US. During the intervening period we will see higher energy bills, rolling blackouts, and rationing. I mean, if our governments and utility companies were good at bui…

In the last few years my city Memphis demolished its primary coal plant and replaced it with several advanced combined cycle gas plants. TVA, which serves Memphis, is a reasonably middle of the road power provider. In the last few years in my Texas businesses we've started buying wind-only energy at commercial scale, which is cheaper but requires A certain demand use curve for low rates. Solar will continue rapid installation. EV charging will become more distributed.

These are significant changes and have happened in the last 10 yrs. The grid can continue to make major changes. Nothing I've said is particularly wild or opinionated.

The article and the report make a very plain fallacy of assuming a millions of EVs get dumped on the grid at the same time with no other material changes. It's just not a helpful discussion or presented conclusion/headline. Bold claims extrapolated from sparse data. Reminds me of the peak oil articles way back when, media sought to cast an image of cars stranded on apocalyptic interstates.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#102

Post by prmoustache »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #91
twblalock wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty similar to this idea, which I already mentioned: > People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon. It's not realistic to expect a…

> many homes need retrofitting to be able to charge an EV FWIW 1kW for 8 hours is ~50km which is enough for most daily drives > I need my electrical panel replaced How much is that, really? Panel itself cost nothing, just some labour which I take is very expensive. You are improving your house tho and cost is likely negligible compared to car cost. FWIW it cost us ~$500 (eastern europe) to get 7kW charger purchased +…

One could argue that nobody doing less than 50km a day should need a car. Except if living in a remote mountain village.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#103

Post by jjav »

ethagknight wrote: post #66

I am so tired of misinformation like this. I know they use the "may" get-out-of-jail-free card in the title, but no, nighttime EV charging will not overburden the grid by 2035, as the article purports, because "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years. Plus, networked software solutions are already baked into EVs for time of day charging; as such, its a solved problem unworthy of a headline. The add…

> "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years

That feels dramatically optimistic.

The California Camp Fire was started by PG&E transmission lines about a 100 years old that were not being maintained. That is the rate of change and maintenance on the electrical infrastructure.

Now, sure, EVs are shaking up the electrical grid needs so perhaps the future will see faster evolution than a 100 year cycle. But dramatically different in 13 years? I don't think so.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#104

Post by ethagknight »

jjav wrote: post #103
ethagknight wrote: post #66

I am so tired of misinformation like this. I know they use the "may" get-out-of-jail-free card in the title, but no, nighttime EV charging will not overburden the grid by 2035, as the article purports, because "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years. Plus, networked software solutions are already baked into EVs for time of day charging; as such, its a solved problem unworthy of a headline. The add…

> "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years That feels dramatically optimistic. The California Camp Fire was started by PG&E transmission lines about a 100 years old that were not being maintained. That is the rate of change and maintenance on the electrical infrastructure. Now, sure, EVs are shaking up the electrical grid needs so perhaps the future will see faster evolution than a 100 year cycle.…

I would put PG&E at the bottom end of providers, at least based on headlines and the attitude of people here on HN. Exacerbated issues there are unique to California’s social climate, complicated by California’s environmental regulation and the standoff relationship between that power provider and the citizens it serves. Further more, if im reading the previous linked report correctly, energy demand has largely plateaued across the market since 2005 as energy efficiency has take a priority, led lighting, and other innovations. Back in 2005, I recall reports that our energy demands would double in the next 10 years as engineers and economists gleefully showed straight line projections. Peak oil, etc. Its just foolish to think the energy market is going to remain static over the next 10-15 years.

But more broadly, the grid is evolving whether a Utility embraces it or not. On a residential basis, I have an EV and a backup generator. Software and policy are the primary inhibitors that prevent me from feeding a few kws back into the grid. But even if I never get to feed back into the grid, if the grid is insufficient, I can always kick on my gen to provide the power I need. That private generator is part of the grid, part of the network. Who is to say utilities or even EV supercharging stations don’t start installing large generators on site to shave demand. New Grid interconnects are possible between regions. These can be massive thousand mile deals or they can be across a river.

People love to complain about their power utilities, and there have been some dramatic shortcomings in recent years across the country, but waving away the opportunity to adapt is a curious approach to me, especially for the HN crowd.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#105

Post by tootie »

twblalock wrote: post #28
tootie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple answer is just "congestion pricing". You want fast charging at peak hours, pay double. If not, set some price optimization. And set it to prioritize the first 30% of charge to never be stranded but always wait for cheaper power to fill to the top. If you've got a fishing trip, plan ahead or pay extra. That's just free markets.

That already happens. PG&E charges differently at peak times in California, for example. People just pay for it anyway because they can’t plan their daily lives around the power company’s preferred times.

Sure they can and anyone who is aware of it does. We do it in NYC and I save things like dishwasher and laundry for off-peak times. But things like car charging are unique because there may be a 12-hour window in which you need to do 4 hours of charging and the timing is very flexible and has diminishing returns if you don't have a lot of miles to cover any time soon.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#106

Post by dzhiurgis »

akira2501 wrote: post #19
megaman821 wrote: post #9

The solution to this is going to be have customers enroll in smart charging. Keep your car connected to the smart charger when not in use and during times of excess power charge the car for a few cents per kw.

So, the solution to "the solution" is to allow the government to control more of the market? Who will enforce this? What will the penalties be? Or, do we just raise power prices for everyone and then give them a break if they allow a third party device to restrict their power usage? Seems like a great way to subsidize "the solution" on the backs of people who can't afford a new EV of their own. Also.. when are there…

> the government

Buying EV before getting rooftop solar (and potentially batteries) is incredibly dumb. FWIW gov shouldn't even allow this.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#107

Post by tootie »

giantg2 wrote: post #27
tootie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple answer is just "congestion pricing". You want fast charging at peak hours, pay double. If not, set some price optimization. And set it to prioritize the first 30% of charge to never be stranded but always wait for cheaper power to fill to the top. If you've got a fishing trip, plan ahead or pay extra. That's just free markets.

Is there currently distinction between electric for charging vs traditional uses at the residential level?

The grid has no idea what you're doing with your power nor does it send different modes of electricity to different appliances. It would be the responsibility of the home or the vehicle being charged to modulate the amount of current (or type of current) they're pulling.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#108

Post by giantg2 »

tootie wrote: post #107
giantg2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there currently distinction between electric for charging vs traditional uses at the residential level?

The grid has no idea what you're doing with your power nor does it send different modes of electricity to different appliances. It would be the responsibility of the home or the vehicle being charged to modulate the amount of current (or type of current) they're pulling.

But the pricing is set at the grid level. So you'll have people being charged extra for "normal" uses.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#109

Post by giantg2 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #86
giantg2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except if they were really serious they would have just eliminated the need to spend that energy driving into the office by allowing WFH.

woooosh

Hmm, there's that weird sound that I hear multiple times a day. I wonder what it could be...

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#110

Post by [deleted] »

_skel wrote: post #84
theironhammer wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs are going to screw low income people via Sky High Electricity prices. Electricity will become an expensive commodity. Look at prices in the UK and Europe. It's already starting to happen (but not because of EVs). Just wait till EVs become pervasive. All that demand for electricity.

What is happening in the UK and Europe right now is a preview of a future where fossil fuel supply is rapidly curtailed before alternatives are ready. It's a cautionary tale about moving too fast in the right direction. It's easy to say "stop oil now" and things like that, but the reality is that there is only so much suffering the population will take before they turn to right-wing populist politicians who promise t…

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