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Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

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Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#101

Post by nahname »

eropple wrote: post #68
MartinCron wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why I use hg instead of git. I totally see where you're coming from, and I personally think hg is great. I just don't want your comment to scare windows developers off. For the record: running git on windows is great.

Disagree. It's gotten better, but the tooling is awkward, the commonly used UI (TortoiseGit) is wonky, and not being a "native citizen" on the OS isn't acceptable--MSYS is a mess to have around on a Windows machine and even the "minimal subset" that you can install with Git is more than I consider acceptable. (I realize that entirely too much of Git is UNIX-based plumbing, but that's their problem.) I gave Git anothe…

I think poor IDE support is pretty unilateral because git is supposed to used from a command line. It is great to work with a tool where the UI is an after thought because the UI will always be cumbersome with something as complex as source control.

msysgit works great, has for years. The install is simple enough a non-technical person can do it. I've used git on projects with non-technical people checking in from the command line. It is pretty surprising to see a PM have an easier time than a dev only because they don't have years of UI driven source control working against them. Using source control from the command line... well that is the trick. Though I haven't met many great developers who cannot.

Also, git extensions is pretty good (better than tortoise). I usually install it because viewing the history from the IDE is a nice way to keep your flow going. You can do some creative things searching through the logs as well.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#102

Post by mythz »

MartinCron wrote: post #94
mythz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lightweight? seriously? http://servicestack.net/benchmarks/

Seriously, it's easy to work with and doesn't get in my way. The fact that it may take a few more ms to do some things that probably aren't my bottleneck doesn't matter.

A few more ms != The slowest ORM, that's a factor of times slower.

Unless you've got a free ticket onboard the MSFacts Train.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#103

Post by axefrog »

notatoad wrote: post #70
eropple wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It's gotten better, but the tooling is awkward, the commonly used UI (TortoiseGit) is wonky, and not being a "native citizen" on the OS isn't acceptable--MSYS is a mess to have around on a Windows machine and even the "minimal subset" that you can install with Git is more than I consider acceptable. (I realize that entirely too much of Git is UNIX-based plumbing, but that's their problem.) I gave Git anothe…

git GUIs on windows are all pretty weak, but the git command line and git bash work perfectly well. my experience with git GUIs in general (regardless of the OS) is that you should just give up and use the CLI.

Powershell + msysgit work just fine. It puzzles me why people still keep referring to ye olde command prompt as "the windows command line" when Powershell has actually been around for years now and (while significantly different to bash) is extremely capable. My only complaint really is the lack of dynamic resizing without first consulting the options box.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#104

Post by lusr »

eropple wrote: post #68
MartinCron wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why I use hg instead of git. I totally see where you're coming from, and I personally think hg is great. I just don't want your comment to scare windows developers off. For the record: running git on windows is great.

Disagree. It's gotten better, but the tooling is awkward, the commonly used UI (TortoiseGit) is wonky, and not being a "native citizen" on the OS isn't acceptable--MSYS is a mess to have around on a Windows machine and even the "minimal subset" that you can install with Git is more than I consider acceptable. (I realize that entirely too much of Git is UNIX-based plumbing, but that's their problem.) I gave Git anothe…

I initially struggled with Git on Windows (TortoiseGit was buggy and I'm not a fan of command line) and passed it up for Hg. I took a look back in April (since I liked where GitHub & Bitbucket were going whereas the equivalents for Hg were not as impressive) and since then I've been using GitExtensions + the Git Source Control Provider for Visual Studio with zero issues and have thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#105

Post by lusr »

sofuture wrote: post #15
InclinedPlane wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit distressing that a lot of the most interesting .NET things (such as mono[touch,droid] and asp.net MVC) are either black sheep or 3rd party projects. .NET is a solid technology, but I fear it may end up having a limited lifespan due to being so heavily tied to windows, especially as the next generation of systems (tablets, non-traditional PCs, etc.) starts taking over the market.

I've been a staunch .Net defender for a long time, but have almost entirely thrown in the towel at this point. MVC is awesome, C# is awesome, F# is awesome... but, unfortunately Mono just doesn't cut it (Boehm GC? Really? s-gen is a nightmare too, before you counter with that) and Windows isn't a realistic option for a lot of people.

Can you explain what your concerns are with Mono? I haven't used it but as .NET developer hoping to deploy some apps on Mono to cut costs I'd like to understand your criticism better. Are your concerns regarding performance, and within which area? Is it poor memory management and what consequences do you have in mind?

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#106

Post by lusr »

jconley wrote: post #69

Awesome to see a hugely popular and powerful development platform getting noticed by Github. It's great technology that deserves more love and positive mindshare in the open source world. The last startup where I was CTO was largely based on the Microsoft .NET stack and we loved almost every ounce of it as a technology. Until, of course, we tried to hire startup and open-source minded engineers in the Microsoft-hate…

Have you tried GitExtensions? It has a Github plugin. Together with the Git Source Control Provider extension in VS, I've had no problems with Github integration (that being said I'm leaving Github for Bitbucket since Github's arbitrary limits on the number of private repositories pisses me off... for $7/mo at Github I'm getting way less than I do with Bitbucket's free plan).

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#107

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #20

This is a good thing for Microsoft. Microsoft needs to become more outwardly focused and influential softies leaving the fold and pushing from the outside will do that. Right now the two good things Microsoft has going for it is MVC and C#. Both of which were inspired or heavily influenced by outside forces (MVC by Castle and C# 4 was influenced heavily by Python). Phil Haack moving to Github will hopefully push Micr…

> Right now the two good things Microsoft has going for it is MVC and C#.

Right now the two good things Microsoft developer tools has going for it are those.

Let's not forget products that make Microsoft's big money - like windows and office. Not to mention other investments like azure, xbox, and ms research.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#108

Post by bostonvaulter2 »

axefrog wrote: post #103
notatoad wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

git GUIs on windows are all pretty weak, but the git command line and git bash work perfectly well. my experience with git GUIs in general (regardless of the OS) is that you should just give up and use the CLI.

Powershell + msysgit work just fine. It puzzles me why people still keep referring to ye olde command prompt as "the windows command line" when Powershell has actually been around for years now and (while significantly different to bash) is extremely capable. My only complaint really is the lack of dynamic resizing without first consulting the options box.

You might be able to use Console2 to get dynamic realizing. It works for me with got bash at least.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#109

Post by InclinedPlane »

mythz wrote: post #102
MartinCron wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, it's easy to work with and doesn't get in my way. The fact that it may take a few more ms to do some things that probably aren't my bottleneck doesn't matter.

A few more ms != The slowest ORM, that's a factor of times slower. Unless you've got a free ticket onboard the MSFacts Train.

EF seems very much targeted towards "enterprisey" line of business apps, where ease of development is critical and performance is a side note. Microsoft just does not care to make a high-performance web stack. Even in the next generation of Visual Studio ASP.NET MVC stuff is still an optional download. How many production sites in the world are using EF? Microsoft is still very much mired in the idea of selling tools to developers who tend to be on the lowest rung of the skill-tree and who build mediocre internal apps at big companies. They're solution to scaling and efficiency is to buy bigger boxes, higher end Windows licenses, and more of them.

That strategy has certainly fattened their wallets handsomely over the last several decades, but it's ultimately self-defeating. By failing to capture the most skilled developers, and by failing to cater to the most critical development needs (high-throughput business critical web services being a prime example) they have been alienating such developers. And those developers are ultimately the ones who set the standards (in some cases literally, when they are in positions of power at large companies) that other developers tend to follow. And that momentum can be difficult to break. By the time MS realizes it they will be obsolete faster than they can react. And it won't be because the entire world changed overnight, it'll be because the world has been changing for a long long time and it will have finally caught up to their core business.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#110

Post by michaelherndon »

jongalloway2 wrote: post #73
hkarthik wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the good guys are Haack, Hanselman, and Conery, then the bad guys are nearly everyone else.

I'm straight up evil.

As a Representative of evil inc, we are conducting a poll to see if you are any of the following:

* semi-evil. * quasi-evil. * margarine of evil. * Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough.

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