Racism in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Racism in Tech

#101

Post by _b8r0 » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

ww wrote: post #30

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

It's like you've just described every major government contract site I've been on in the past 3 years.

Re: Racism in Tech

#102

Post by mck8 » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 5:41 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #51

wpietri wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a white person in the US, I'll tell you true: my opinion on racism is much less well informed than the average non-white person. Because a) I almost never experience it, b) I am less inclined to notice it, and c) non-white people are very unlikely to talk to me about their experiences and thoughts on the topic. So yes, a person's race is entirely relevant to considering the quality of their opinions on racism. For…

I agree with the statistics (racism is real; white people are less like to be discriminated against or experience indirect racism) but draw the opposite conclusion. When dealing with issues of discrimination the point is to treat everybody equally, to treat people based on their merits and not based on the color of their skin or the statistics of their demographic. If we conclude from research that one race is more i…

It seems likely that k33n's opinion regarding racism in the world is, like most opinions, based largely on personal observations and experiences rather than a careful consideration of all available data. He does not observe racism to be a significant problem and thus concludes that racism is not prevalent or relevant today. You argue that k33n's race is irrelevant to his reasoning.

Both of you are incorrect. We have two hypotheses: racism either is or is not a relevant problem. And, we have that k33n does not observe much racism. We (and k33n) should update our beliefs based on the ratio P(k33n does not observe racism|racism is not relevant)/P(k33n does not observe racism|racism is relevant). The value of this ratio depends on k33n's race. If k33n is white, he's unlikely to observe much racism in either case, and the ratio's value is close to 1. If k33n is black, he's much more likely to not observe racism if racism is not prevalent, so the ratio's value is high and useful for updating beliefs.

You're also arguing that we ought not conclude that someone cannot understand racism simply because they are white. I agree with you, but I don't think that's the issue here. The issue is that k33n is white and seems to glibly conclude that racism isn't a real problem. He couldn't have reached this conclusion by looking at statistics because, as you know, the statistics push you toward the opposition conclusion. So, he probably came to this conclusion because he observed that racism isn't a problem for him personally. In doing so, he was being unreasonable and somewhat callous.

Re: Racism in Tech

#103

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 5:55 PM UTC

bdunbar wrote: post #53

Over the course of the three days, the customer made endless racial and ethnic slurs directed at B. Customer is a 'government owned military installation'. What branch? What site? Was the customer military or civilian contractor? The military is [1] _death_ on racisim, sexism, favoritism. Just does not happen. When it does it gets squashed. While the military one thing, the individual service members are another. It'…

> The military is [1] _death_ on racisim, sexism, favoritism

Officially, yes, but that's probably BS.

This reminds me of two anecdotes about the IDF (not to make this about Israel -- it's just the data that I have):

1) One friend assured me that any soldier acting improperly would be disciplined immediately, as the IDF had very high standards, etc. etc.

2) Another friend used to tell me stories about his IDF stint and how he and his friends would get high on guard duty all the time.

So ... just because you were in a military, doesn't mean that you know what's going down with everyone.

Also, the attitude that you evidence in your post makes it less likely that you'll know the truth, because you'll be more resistant to contrary evidence.

Treat truth as stochastic/unknown. We don't know the truth. Now ask "what practices or attitudes will tend to help me discover what is true? What practices or attitudes will tend to obscure the truth?"

The attitude "nope that can't be happening because organization X is so disciplined" obscures the truth. Especially in an organization that emphasizes loyalty and duty.

Re: Racism in Tech

#104

Post by kenjackson » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 5:57 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #47

I am fed up with all the bla bla around this issue. Really. Look, if you think there is racism in the tech field (let us define this narrowly as prejudices against blacks; prejudices against Indians and Chinese are, I think, a bit different), stop writing cute, angry blog posts; instead write about what the solution is and what you are doing about it. That there are too few blacks in the tech industry is a fact. The…

The problem is for this to work at scale you really need to make programming/entrepreneurship desirable for your African Americans. This is easy for sports and entertainment, because the stars are so visible. But who knows who Peter Thiel is outside of a very small niche. Vinod Khosla?

And this is why I think the black incubators make sense. You can bring the idea of an incubator into the inner city and recruit young people of color and if a handful get modest success it will begin to breed something in their community.

All this is easier said than done and maybe even misguided, but I think that's the idea.

Re: Racism in Tech

#105

Post by randomdata » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 6:07 PM UTC

Rariel wrote: post #45

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

You are the exception and not the rule. It's great when things work out as they did for you but it's not the norm. Just because this has been your experience as a black programmer doesn't mean it is that of all others. I also don't think its true that "This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator." This issue would exist regardless of whether the NewMe accelerator ex…

I have never even met the majority of my clients. I could be black, white, red, or blue for all they know. The colour of your skin may not be a choice, but how you decide to ingrate into the industry is.

A programmer's job is to observe constraints and find a solution given those constraints. Racism is just another constraint. It is a constraint that is not fair. It is a constraint that we should not have to deal with. But, given it does exist, should it stop a good programmer from doing well in the industry? I'm not so sure.

This industry in particular comes so many unique options for work environments. And there is presently so much demand that you can basically write your own ticket. We should definitely be working to stop racism, and all kinds of judgements of others, completely, but in the meantime there are options for those who find themselves affected by it.

Re: Racism in Tech

#106

Post by loso » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 6:12 PM UTC

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

Because you have never experienced any racial problems in the high tech field means that there are none? Everyone else is lying about it?

Projects like the NewME accelerator exists because even if you "make something awesome" in a normal environment, getting attention is hard. You add to that being a minority and the road gets a little rougher. Not in every case but in a lot of them.

This isn't about black and white. This is about humans having natural prejudices even if they don't intend to. Nobody is claiming that the valley or the high tech field in general is full of racists. In fact the opposite is true. It is probably one of the more progressive job fields you will find. But that does not mean there is not a problem. There are biases in the field and one of them includes racial. Pointing it out does not mean everyone in the field is racist. They are just presenting one more problem for geeks to try and solve.

Re: Racism in Tech

#107

Post by ellyagg » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 6:16 PM UTC

joebadmo wrote: post #77

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

Of course that's not the claim being made by your parent. The argument is about how widespread it is and its effects. I'm pretty sure most people would find his story strong evidence for one side of the argument, assuming they believe it. I'm also pretty sure most people will choose to believe it exactly to the extent it agrees with their predetermined bias.

As a white male living in a rural area as a kid and in metropolitan areas as an adult, and having a black best friend, my anecdotal evidence supports a more limited effect than is commonly claimed in pop culture. That is, to the extent that there is willful, systemic, malicious racism, an individual's self-reliance (why this is becoming a dirty word in our culture, I do not know) is significantly more powerful.

I respect people who think the system is flawed and want to dedicate their lives to making it more ideal, but otherwise I think it's healthier to believe your success comes from your own decisions. That's not literally true for ANY of us, but it's best to believe it. It's similar to the recent study which showed that children do best when they believe success is more dependent on how hard you work rather than what your IQ is...which is not the same as it actually being true that success is more dependent on how hard you work rather than what your IQ is.

Re: Racism in Tech

#108

Post by rdl » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 6:21 PM UTC

irahul wrote: post #87

tibbon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a certain degree, what you're saying is even true among people in the US from different regions here. Put someone with a deep southern mountain accent and someone with a Brooklyn accent on the phone and they'll feel at odd with each other. Surveyed afterward, they will both probably feel the other is stupid and didn't understand them on simple things. I myself remember my first experience with someone at a call ce…

> I needed to spell my first name (David) out to them using the NATO phonetic alphabet. Did you just say "Delta Alpha..." or "D as in Delta, A as in Alpha"? I can assure you the first one would confuse the hell out of most of the Indians(I am an Indian living in India). Some of the NATO phonetic alphabets would complicate matters even further - Quebec, Zulu, Yankee. Zulu is a special one, considering Z isn't pronounc…

Anyone not understanding NATO phonetic alphabet has no business working in a call center (or using a telephone, in general), even if English is not his or her native language.

Re: Racism in Tech

#109

Post by Aloisius » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 6:25 PM UTC

Frankly, I expect that there is far more discrimination against foreign born Indians and Chinese in Silicon Valley than there are against black Americans. I've seen it. I don't believe it to be racism since it is rarely directed towards anyone who was born in the US regardless of their descent.

I think there is a very real sense of lack of shared cultural values and overlapping social circles.

During my stint at a certain mid-sized company in Mountain View that happened to hire quite a few H1Bs, I noticed that engineering teams were split. You had a tight knit group of people who were American/Western European and sometimes Japanese and then you had foreign-born Indians and Chinese who socialized with other foreign-born Indians and Chinese in other parts of the company rather than with their own team.

It was a bit dysfunctional and depressing.

Re: Racism in Tech

#110

Post by joebadmo » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 6:31 PM UTC

ellyagg wrote: post #107

joebadmo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

Of course that's not the claim being made by your parent. The argument is about how widespread it is and its effects. I'm pretty sure most people would find his story strong evidence for one side of the argument, assuming they believe it. I'm also pretty sure most people will choose to believe it exactly to the extent it agrees with their predetermined bias. As a white male living in a rural area as a kid and in metr…

This entire issue is crap.

...some BS issue that has no value.

My only advice to "black" and other entrepreneurs is shut up, go code and make something awesome.

This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator.

It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male. It's easy to overlook all the tiny advantages you get that accumulate in an invisible, insidious way. It's easy to see people bringing up the issue as whining.

It's hard to understand what it is to be someone else, what it means to struggle with others' perceptions every waking moment of every day in such a pervasive manner as to be incorporated into your very identity. It's hard. But we should all try.

Sometimes, self-reliance means putting your head down and doing the best work that you can do. Other times, it means finding other people with a common experience and taking collective action to actively change your circumstances. Sometimes it looks like a minority-focused startup accelerator. Sometimes it looks like the Civil Rights Movement.

If it looks like whining, probably the best thing to do is to try to refrain from meta-whining, and deeply consider whether the issue could be a real one, even though your own experience is different.